D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

[Ralif Redhammer]

Yeah, if you look at the adventures of that era, compared to modern adventures there's way more magic items and treasure being parceled out. As much as I I dig the OSR, there are a ton of assumptions of how things were "back in the day" that just aren't supported by how things were back then (I have a theory that some of those tropes are instead developed out of memories of inexperienced, young DMs and players, rather than how things were actually done, but that's a different conversation). If you compare the treasure given out in the shorter Glacial Rift of the Frost Jarl, it's probably comparable to one of the entire campaign-length modules of 5e.

Why do most people assume that GH is low magic? It was in Greyhawk that rangers had access to both wizard and druidic spells. It was in Greyhawk that the paladins had the most magical powers. At first level they were constantly under the effect of protection from evil.

I'd concur (on Gygax's decreasing relevance - I'd gladly play 1e again over poking myself in the eye), alas. I suspect it would be different had Gail Gygax not closed down all current product lines in production and done nothing with Gary's IP in the years that followed.

While I respect Gary Gygax as one of the foundational pillars of our little hobby, I don't believe he's all that relevant to most D&D players today save as a historical curiosity. What exactly does Gygax mean to most D&D players today? His involvement in shaping the game ended in 1985 before most of them were even born, they don't use any of the rules Gygax created, the don't play the game the same as it was played in 1982, and when seeking advice on how to run a game they're not going to turn to Gygax's writings for advice. I have fond memories of Gygax's work, but I would sooner poke myself in the eye before I'd run a game using AD&D 1st edition.

 

[Minigiant]

Because it would make the setting distinctive and interesting ?

Even if it's not true?
The issue is there is no such thing as "low magic". There are multiple axis of magic such as:

1. Magic Power
2. Magic Frequency
3. Magic Versatility

Then you can triple this with magic users, magical creatures, and magic items. Then you can do the power sources thing.

Greyhawk is High Magic Power, Moderate, Magic Versatility, but the frequency is low. Powerful beings are far apart to the point that some people think of them as legends. This is why Greyhawk tends to rely on standard military tactics for issues and adventuring is for the few souls greedy or ambitious enough to seek out rare treasure on their own.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

To be clear, I do understand Greyhawk and everything that you have said. It is because I have taken the time to research it that I simply do not like it, but I understand why others enjoy it, as I have similar wishes for Dragonlance to be brought up to a modern audience. But I say to you the same I say to Dragonlance fans whom only want to see the setting rerelease the original trilogy reprinted and the series never updated after: nostalgia obsession leads to nothing but the death of any hobby or fandom, and it is the other piece of of the puzzle for WHY the settings other than Forgotten Realms are in the state that they are in. It is not just all the fault of TSR or WotC. And hell, this is coming from one of the biggest critics of Disney Star Wars here.

We have to realize that most of the settings at this point are so dated they basically are all blank slates at this point to the majority of the WoTC audience, and like it or not, if a setting is to continue existing it needs to have a reason to exist. You claiming "Sword and sorcery" is nice and all, and I understand what you mean because I'm a fantasy junkie, but most of the people who play the game frankly do not know the difference between Sword and Sorcery and High Magic, to them it's all just "let's be elves and dwarves and go fight dragons with flaming swords." I could seen a solid argument for maybe making Greyhawk the setting for those who prefer a traditional sandbox campaign largely focused on dungeon crawls, but again I hark back to my earlier post: does enough of the modern D&D customer base care enough to actually make making such a book, especially when the large part of the Greyhawk fans will hate the book anyway? Opening it up to the DMG guild is honestly probably the best call they could make.

Related point: I'd actually like to see the actual metrics on hardcore Greyhawk fans and if they still largely play first or second edition versions of the game compared to 5e to be frank. I'd wager a large sum that most of them don't even play 5e, and it would largely be more profitable to just reprint older modules anyway that are out of print, but I welcome being proven wrong on this point. To the point of updating older modules, I point you to multiple books we've already had: Tales of the Yawning Portal, Curse of Strahd, and Saltmarsh.

First, I appreciate your thoughtful post. So while I am going to speak to those areas where I disagree with you, it is not meant to say that I disrespect the thought you put into your opinion.

I would start by saying that there is a subset of Greyhawk fans that can never be pleased. Just like any section of fandom. And for those people, there is a simple solution:

1. Go to DriveThruRpg.
World of Greyhawk Fantasy Game Setting (1e) - Wizards of the Coast | AD&D 1st Ed. | Greyhawk | AD&D 1st Ed. | DriveThruRPG.com

2. Purchase the .pdf of the Boxed Set.

3. Run Greyhawk just like you want it, using either 5e rules or 1e or a retroclone.

4. Profit?????


But there is a much larger contingent of people that would like to see Greyhawk brought back as a setting in 5e. There are several good reasons for this, IMO.

A. 5e is, quite literally, the nostalgia edition. This is the perfect time to "resurrect" Greyhawk properly. Marketed correctly as the FIRST D&D setting, or the ur-setting, or whatever, it should be fine.

B. Younger gamers eventually like to learn about the game they are playing. Not all of them. But enough. A little bit of history, done right, is a real selling point.

C. An update that accentuates features of Greyhawk (stays true to the original vision) while making it modern and palatable would be amazing. All that can be asked for is something that is done well. A good, no, a GREAT product that respects the source is all anyone can ever want. But the quality of the product always comes before fidelity to the source material. Take the best, leave the rest.

Finally, I think you are confusing aspects of the playing style (dungeon crawls) with the setting. Greyhawk isn't about "dungeon crawls" per se, although you can have them.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

My first contact with the lore of D&D was "the Scarlet Brotherhood" and the corebooks of 3.5 Edition. FR is for me like the spectacular showcase of a toy-shop but not they toys from my childhood I played with my own hands. I don't find the right words, but Gh is like that superhero who isn't so popular, but it was the comic I bought when I was a teenage.

But Greyhawk is incomplete for me, I miss the other continents. And the metaplot has been frozen for decades.

 

[TwoSix]

C. An update that accentuates features of Greyhawk (stays true to the original vision) while making it modern and palatable would be amazing. All that can be asked for is something that is done well. A good, no, a GREAT product that respects the source is all anyone can ever want. But the quality of the product always comes before fidelity to the source material. Take the best, leave the rest.

I have no emotional stake in any Greyhawk renaissance, but I would certainly be interested in a setting marketed in this manner.

I think rare-but-potent magic is a setting type that hasn't been served yet in 5e, and arguably hasn't been served officially since 2e.

 

[Remathilis]

Not really. I already wrote a whole post about it, including a section where I explained ways that we could move forward.

But the one thing that usually doesn't work is the people who don't care about Greyhawk at all lecturing the people that do about how it's just a generic setting, and why aren't we just playing Forgotten Realms anyway?

We don't want a setting encased in amber- we just don't want people who don't seem to like or understand the setting wrecking it again. I mean, as I went through in the thread, that's already happened plenty of times.

Let me explain with a food analogy.

D&D is a sundae bar. The core rules are vanilla ice cream. Settings are toppings. Forgotten Realms is whip-cream and maybe sprinkles, a little color but otherwise bland. Eberron is hot fudge with nuts, Dragonlance is straweberries, Ravenloft is dark chocolate, Greyhawk is caramel, Wildemount is candy-pieces, Mystara is butterscotch, and Dark Sun is Fro-yo. Underneath it all is that boring vanilla, but the sauces and toppings give it the flavor. To say Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk is the same because they both use vanilla ice-cream is a disservice, but it's equally unfair to demand someone remove the vanilla bean from the ice-cream of your caramel sundae because it tastes too much like Forgotten Realms. I want the setting to emphasize the caramel and what makes that different than hot-fudge or strawberry.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Let me explain with a food analogy.

D&D is a sundae bar. The core rules are vanilla ice cream. Settings are toppings. Forgotten Realms is whip-cream and maybe sprinkles, a little color but otherwise bland. Eberron is hot fudge with nuts, Dragonlance is straweberries, Ravenloft is dark chocolate, Greyhawk is caramel, Wildemount is candy-pieces, Mystara is butterscotch, and Dark Sun is Fro-yo. Underneath it all is that boring vanilla, but the sauces and toppings give it the flavor. To say Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk is the same because they both use vanilla ice-cream is a disservice, but it's equally unfair to demand someone remove the vanilla bean from the ice-cream of your caramel sundae because it tastes too much like Forgotten Realms. I want the setting to emphasize the caramel and what makes that different than hot-fudge or strawberry.

Fair enough. I understand where you are coming from

I have a different view of settings. To use your analogy-

The D&D game that you play at your table is the ice cream sundae.

Some settings just change the toppings- sometimes it's a lot (sometimes it's gummy worms and bananas and hot fudge and candy pieces and caramel and whipped cream and marshmallow fluff), but it's all layered on the same three scoops of vanilla.

On the other hand, some settings will actually change the ice cream underneath. Instead of vanilla, you will have chocolate, or strawberry, or butter pecan, for one, two, or all three scoops.

I find those setting to be the most interesting. Because they have more of a, for lack of a better term, point of view.

 

[Remathilis]

Fair enough. I understand where you are coming from

I have a different view of settings. To use your analogy-

The D&D game that you play at your table is the ice cream sundae.

Some settings just change the toppings- sometimes it's a lot (sometimes it's gummy worms and bananas and hot fudge and candy pieces and caramel and whipped cream and marshmallow fluff), but it's all layered on the same three scoops of vanilla.

On the other hand, some settings will actually change the ice cream underneath. Instead of vanilla, you will have chocolate, or strawberry, or butter pecan, for one, two, or all three scoops.

I find those setting to be the most interesting. Because they have more of a, for lack of a better term, point of view.

Fair also. I'd have probably used other flavors of ice cream as other RPGs in my analogy. It's not perfect, but that's a point where we'll just agree to disagree.

 

[TwoSix]

To move away from the oft-productive topic of food metaphors for a second, let me ask some questions:

1) What specific elements of Greyhawk would need to be maintained to capture the idea of being "respectful to tradition"?
2) What elements of 5e could be introduced into Greyhawk in a way that respects the Greyhawk tradition? What elements would specifically need to be excluded?
3) What novel concepts could be added to Greyhawk that both enhance the Greyhawk flavor and add to the 5e experience?

 

[Minigiant]

I think the core issue that Greyhawk has is that D&D is so big, there is no guarantee that you have a designer passionate about in on any edition's design team.

Settings, races, themes, and especially classes have suffered because there just happened to be too few people to deeply care about the concept to put the effort and plead the case for great inclusions of them.