D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

[Paul Farquhar]

EDIT - Helldritch points out the Witcher, and whilst I'd argue it's a related genre, rather than straight S&S, that actually is a modern example of something that does have a pretty strong S&S vibe. Have you read, played or watched Witcher stuff? It's certainly in the Venn diagram of Sanderson, Butcher and anime.

On what basis would you rule Witcher is not S&S? I'm not a fan of genre pigeonholes, but this is how Wikipedia defines it:

a subgenre of fantasy characterized by sword-wielding heroes engaged in exciting and violent adventures.

Check.

An element of romance is often present

Check.

as is an element of magic and the supernatural.

Check.

Unlike works of high fantasy, the tales, though dramatic, focus mainly on personal battles rather than world-endangering matters.

True of the original short stories and novels. The TV and video game versions do go in for a bit of world-saving.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

@Doug McCrae

Great post at #477, although it seems to tie in more to the issue of whether or not D&D is "humanocentric."

That said, I would make the following notes/additions/quibbles with some of your comments:

1. The one main issue I have with your analysis is your over-reliance on Tolkien. Now, without reviving an age-old and interminable debate, I think the following two things can be true:
a. Gygax borrowed more from Tolkien for various reasons than he liked to admit, often to the point of later denying the obvious.
b. Gygax really did not like Tolkien in comparison to his favorite writers.

The reason that this is important is because while we see the roots of some things in D&D that relied on Tolkien, all the way back to the likely borrowing of aspects of another person's wargame for Pelennor Fields for the original Chainmail Fantasy supplement, it is also true that (1) Gygax did not model Greyhawk after LoTR, (2) Gygax was consistent about the human-centered nature of early D&D and Greyhawk, and (3) given the publication date of Greyhawk and the issues with the Tolkien estate, any possible continuing resemblance should be considered extremely suspect.

2. As detailed in the other thread, it is possible to read the population numbers in different ways (and this is before getting into the age-old debate about whether the land/population numbers in the 1983 and earlier editions are a mistaken, a happy accident, or deliberate in terms of sparseness). Mortellan has a whole excellent analysis of the elven populations of Greyhawk that is linked to.

D&D General - Moar Greyhawk: Anthropocentrism and Humanity in Greyhawk

This post is related to another post I just wrote, about Greyhawk, here: https://www.enworld.org/threads/for-the-love-of-greyhawk-why-people-still-fight-to-preserve-greyhawk.674292/ After some time in the comments, a poster responded to a list of non-exclusive factors I wrote about Greyhawk...

www.enworld.org

The issue, again, is that you can present the numbers in multiple ways. For example, while I'd have to do the math out, my prior check on this indicates that the entire population of all the demi-humans in Greyhawk that we can enumerate, or come close to it, is far less than the the human population of just the Great Kingdom. There are scant demi-humans, and they are bit players that work with humans for their mutual interests.

3. The issue with the humanoids is interesting, and has to be seen in the context of the time (IMO). At the time, demi-humans (NPCs) = good, humanoids = evil. The dwindling numbers of demi-humans (after the waves of human migration) and the more recent establishment of entire areas overrun by humanoids (as opposed to raiding bands, or scattered areas in the borders) is indicative of the decay and gradual collapse of the human civilizations. Even looking at the map, it becomes obvious; there is a "core" in the center; to the northeast are the barbarians; to the east is the corrupt and collapsing Great Kingdom; to the Southeast are the nazi racist monks; to the north you find the Horned Society, Iuz, and Blackmoor; the west is hemmed in by the Sea of Dust and the remnants of the Baklun empire; and the sourthwest is the slavers and the Amedio Jungle.

Overall, you could read this in a Tolkien-esque way. But assuming this was not written in such a manner, it seems more (reading the history) that the humans swept through, the dwindling numbers of demi-humans kept to themselves, and as humanoids became more common and more of a threat, the demi-humans made some mutually-beneficial alliances with the humans. Unfortunately, while those had been successul (Hateful Wars, Emridy Meadows), increasingly the humanoids and evil have been getting the upper hand. Given the abbreviated chronology in which every event from 479 on bodes increasingly poorly, I think that's a more likely reading. But that's me. I think reading Greyhawk as "Tolkien-esque" isn't correct, although it's fine to do.


EDIT: I apologize if this is unclear, but I really did enjoy reading your post and appreciated the work you put into it. A lot of times, a conversation can be like people discussing whether a glass is half full, or half empty, or, to use a more recent example, does the dress look blue or gold. I think we can agree on many of the base facts, and still reach disparate conclusions given the frame we are using and the assumptions that go into it; even simple things like, "How prevalent are the demi-humans, compared to humans, with the numbers we are given? What constitutes "a lot" in the context of this campaign?"

 

[Doug McCrae]

An attempt to summarise the main themes (together with their sources) of Greyhawk as presented in the 1983 boxed set. They are listed in order of importance. May be of interest to @Chaosmancer.

1. War. The most important by far. Most of the entries for each region describe its order of battle – numbers of troops, troop types, equipment, and how many more can be raised. There are also several battle reports, such as the Battle of Emridy Meadows. A major war is brewing between The Great Kingdom and its neighbours. The main influence is medieval military history, by way of wargaming.
2. Good, Evil, and Neutrality. The Regional Alignments map (Guide pg 44) divides the world up into good, evil, and neutral realms. I think Anderson’s Three Hearts and Three Lions is the most important influence, but lots of fantasy worlds have good lands and evil lands. Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion novels have Law, Chaos, and the Balance with the last being most desirable, which could explain Greyhawk's tripolarity.
3. Tolkien-esque races, as described upthread. This has an influence on the 'racial geography' (elves in forests, dwarves in mountains, etc), as well as orders of battle and battle reports. It's connected to (2) because demi-humans are good and humanoids are evil.
4. Leiber-ian cities. The City of Greyhawk, which resembles Lankhmar, is one of the most important places in the World of Greyhawk, perhaps the most important.
5. Short, episodic adventures (Glossography pgs 26-30). Source: sword and sorcery.
6. Lots of opportunities for adventure, some much harder to reach than others. It's a lot easier to travel to the tombs in the Cairn Hills than the Forgotten City in the Sea of Dust. This is more a D&D-ism than anything else.
7. A plethora of monsters. Related to (6), and also a D&D-ism.
8. A deeply mistaken emphasis on the different races of humanity, using terms such as "racial stock" and "admixture". It was the 1980s, Gygax ought to have known better. Robert E Howard’s Hyborian Age is the source.
9. Analogues of medieval Europe. Flanaess = Europe, mostly. As @pemerton rightly said upthread Perrenland = Switzerland. The Great Kingdom = The Holy Roman Empire. Ice/Frost/Snow Barbarians = Vikings. As with (1), the source is medieval European history.
10. A lost Age of Wonders, destroyed by Apocalypse. Many sources for this, such as the myth of Atlantis.
11. Killable gods. 11 pages (out of 128) are devoted to the gods' combat stats. The main influence here is Michael Moorcock's Stormbringer, I think.
12. Arthurian knights. Three knightly orders (Guide pgs 79-80).

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Might be worth mentioning, for those who haven't read Leiber, that Terry Pratchett's Ankh Morpork began as a parody of Lankhmar.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

7. A deeply mistaken emphasis on the different races of humanity, using terms such as "racial stock" and "admixture". It was the 1980s, Gygax ought to have known better. Robert E Howard’s Hyborian Age is the source.

I'm going to quibble, slightly, here. We might want to hold people to a higher standard, but that wasn't that uncommon, even in the 80s.

It's like saying, "I am shocked at the weird misogyny in these 80s films! They should've known better!'

I mean, should have? Sure. But did they? Eh ....

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Right, I should stop dramatizing, everyone has opinions.

Mine just aren't worth much....

@Chaosmancer

I can sympathize with your points in this thread. I think at one time early on we were pretty much parroting the exact same questions.

When you find that your primary topic of discussion in a thread is not what the actual topic of the thread is about but instead has shifted to personal arguments with other board members then maybe its time to bow out or just refocus on the actual topic and let it go.

Do you know that uncomfortable feeling you have when you go to a friends house and they get into a huge argument with their significant other and you are left standing around kind of embarrassed at the whole situation. That's yourself and @Ruin Explorer in this thread.

 

[Jeff Albertson]

4. The City of Greyhawk, which resembles Lankhmar

7. It was the 1980s, Gygax ought to have known better.

4. Never seen/heard that take - how do you figure?

7. Please stop posting things like that, it's obnoxious.

 

[Bupp]

Are any of the Greyhawk wikis out there faithful to the Folio or the 1983 Box Set?

 

[Bohandas]

So what is to be done with Greyhawk? I think there are two simple, easy-to-understand, wrong solutions to the problem:
1. Ignore the haters and publish whatever you want; they are just going to whine and die off anyway.
2. Don't bother with Greyhawk; it's not worth it.

The reason neither of these is really suitable is because ignoring the people that are truly passionate about a product is probably not a good way to succeed (after all, even old people can evangelize) while ignoring the ur-setting of D&D in 5e (motto- "We will bring all ur nostalgia to u while also cultivating the twitch peoples") seems like a poor choice.

The answer, as always, is this- find someone who loves "Old Greyhawk" (WOG) and is also a good designer. And let them make a great product. There is a lot of innate hostility towards new Greyhawk products because, to be honest, there is a long history of them sucking (from the perspective of the Old Guard), with an added dash of the most ill-conceived, worst-ever product (WG7) in the TSR era rubbishing Greyhawk.

But, speaking for myself, I would love to see an "updated Greyhawk" that accentuates the differences in the setting (as compared to other settings) and really emphasizes the swords & sorcery, adventurers for money (not heroic quests) aspects of Greyhawk.

Anyway, that's my story. Feel free to chime in - that's what the comments are for.

What they need to do is publish the real origina, Gygax Castle Greyhawk. There's some people still around who have played it. I think Jim Ward did, for example.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Right, I should stop dramatizing, everyone has opinions.

Mine just aren't worth much....



Unlike me?

Right. I'm not willing to admit that my opinion on a DnD setting has little value, because I haven't read specific works. How dare I

And, you completely side-stepped my entire point.

Source material is great to know, and sometimes mechanics are important for thematic elements. But, even without ever having seen Buffy I know it is about a high school chosen one saving the world from monsters. And I know a lot of stories that do that. And if there is a single mechanic I don't understand for thematic reasons, I would be sure someone would tell me about the thematic connection if it was obvious enough.

But I can't even get to that point. I can't even get to the point of talking about specific mechanics, because I should not even open the thread to read the first post, because (as I have been told) my ignorance means that I can only give opinions that are "not worth much"





If Howard and Moorcock are anywhere near as influential as people claim, then the fact that I have read a wide swath of fiction written since the 2000's means the odds of me reading something inspired by them are high.

There are only so many tropes and set-ups in fiction, and a lot of them overlap.







.... Yes, and?

Remember this entire discussion started because I asked to understand, I was told that without the proper context I could never understand. In fact, you yourself in this same post stated "everyone has opinions, and ignorant opinions aren't worth much."

And at the same time as telling me my opinion isn't worth much at all... you also want to stated that I might read the setting differently and that isn't a problem.

Well, if it isn't a problem, then why slam the door in my face before I can even begin discussing the setting? I never once thought I would have a perfect understanding of the setting, but I couldn't even get people to give me the basics for a full day and a half, because "you just wouldn't understand, so I won't even start trying to explain it better."





I guess I'm sorry for being haughty, but I still stand by the fact that I'm not going to drop everything in my life to stop and read material to understand a setting that people want to be sold.

I asked "What is the hook for Greyhawk, what makes it so people should buy it from their game store" and when I revealed I had no knowledge of sword and sorcerery, well, the answer basically has boiled down to "If you aren't familiar, you need to learn, because no one is trying to sell it to you."

Sure, sometimes you need to familiarize yourself with the material, but sometimes you can't do that immediately, and I pushed back on this idea that there is nothing about Greyhawk I can understand or appreciate without having first read S&S.


And, if people want the setting to be sold to new players of DnD... that is kind of important, because as I mentioned a while back, someone who wanders into their FLGS, sees Greyhawk, and asks about it, or heck reads a blurb meant to hook them in, isn't going to be hooked by "The Setting that you have to have read the Sword and Sorcerery Genre to understand.". They are going see that, think that, no, they haven't read any of that, and ignore the product.

Although I'm not close to @Ruin Explorer 's opinions on this, I will say that people have made some pretty compelling arguments and comparisons to other popular fiction in their pitch to Greyhawk.

So no, people don't expect you to have read these to understand what we are talking about. However, it is extremely frustrating when we give suggestions and comparisons, and you're reply is essentially "I haven't read that, and don't know that genre. Recommend something else or make a better pitch."

It's not our job to exhaustively go through the catalog of things you've read (we don't know you!) so for people to be annoyed that you don't have any willingness to learn about the subject, is justified.

So again, no you don't need to read Moorcock's books or buy a Conan pulp magazine. But yes, you need to be a little bit informed on the genre of S&S for you to understand the appeal of S&S. That's pretty standard on how learning works.

Here are some things you can read. If you won't, I think everyone should just give up on selling you Greyhawk.

What's The Difference Between Epic Fantasy And Sword-And-Sorcery?

As an editor at Pyr Books, Lou Anders has published tons of fantasy novels of all stripes. But now he's crafted his own fantasy novel, Frostborn, in the sword-and-sorcery tradition that goes back to Conan. But what's the difference between "epic fantasy" and "sword and sorcery"? Anders explains.

io9.gizmodo.com

Sword & Sorcery - 1d4chan

1d4chan.org