Forked Thread: Arcane Power Excerpts: Cunning Weapons

[Oompa]

Except that the general entry on weapons in AV uses Cunning Weapon as its specific example. So it is clarifying that Cunning weapon should only apply to weapon powers. Or it is wrong. Either way, the section just adds to the confusion.

Quoting again

(emphasis mine)

Can a wizard use a cunning dagger as a implement?

No..

So a cunning dagger is only useable as a magical dagger, and you only get the magical (cunning) property when it is used in a power that has the "weapon" keyword.

But now the wizard gains a feature, that says he can use a dagger as a implement.

So now he has a cunning dagger and uses it in a power that has the "implement" keyword, so he can add his "cunning" property to the power.

Because the wizard has the feature he may use a weapon of choice as a implement, it only has to be a melee weapon (preq of cunning)

A staff wizard could get a cunning staff..

Phb say's that a staff is also a melee weapon.. and a melee weapon can get the cunning property, and a staff can function as a implement for the wizard..

 

[UngeheuerLich]

no: you have it backwards:

you can have a cunning quarterstaff

you can treat a staff as a quarterstaff

you cannot treat a cunning quarterstaff as a staff!

the feat however allows you to treat a longsword as an implement (not an implement as a weaon like the staff), which makes it more complicated.

Solutions:

1) weapons intended for use as an implement need implement enchantments of that exact implement to function. (a longsword inscribed with runes normally found on a staff for example)

2) weapon enchantments fdon´t work when used as an implement, and weapon focus also doesn´t work (implement fokus does however)

3) a staff needs one hand to be wielded as implement, and two hands to be treated as quarterstaff. Even small casters may do so. (Adding the small keyword to the staff would not be imbalanced at all, i have fought - and lost - against a boy with a quarterstaff)

 

[evilbob]

You can wield a staff in 1 hand when using it as an implement, but it requires two-hands to use it as a weapon.

Based on the FAQ question 21, if you choose to wield a staff in 2 hands when using it as an implement, you can take advantage of certain feats that give bonuses to the when it is wielded as a weapon (weapon focus and Two-weapon fighting if you also have the Staff Fighting feat).

Basically, a staff is a quarterstaff when wielded in two hands. It counts as both a weapon and implement at the same time, and can be used as either.

Oh I agree, but the question remains: does this give it the ability to have the cunning property? And if so, does that property apply to implement attacks?

Probably not worth noting, but I don't think there's a way to give the cunning property to staffs in the character builder.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Except that the general entry on weapons in AV uses Cunning Weapon as its specific example. So it is clarifying that Cunning weapon should only apply to weapon powers. Or it is wrong. Either way, the section just adds to the confusion.

Quoting again

(emphasis mine)

You're missing the point, I think. The example in AV only says that you don't get the Cunning Weapon bonus when you make a weapon attack with a weapon in your other hand. It has no bearing on using the weapon as an implement. The example there is totally irrelevant to the question at hand.

Now, I would say you wouldn't get the Cunning Weapon bonus either in the case where you used a different implement in your other hand either, but that is specifically because of the "delivered with this weapon" text in the CW property entry. The more general case of having 2 equipped implements and which properties of each are effective is a bit more involved. IIRC at least SOME properties of an 'off hand implement' can be effective. There was a whole discussion of that recently here I believe. In any case that also is a slightly different situation than what the OP was talking about.

 

[Nymrohd]

This has been the greatest problem with me so far in 4E. Many feats and items seem to have very bad game grammar. With game grammar being the defining trait of 4E (bringing a great part of MtG in the game that helps built a balanced game) it seems that many if not most designer fail to use that grammar correctly, especially when it comes to weapon properties translating into implement powers because of said crap grammar. I very much hope that at some point we will get a lot more errata nad than in a couple of years I will be able to get the latest print of PHB with weapon focus applying only to weapon powers and wintertouched only to implement powers.

 

[evilbob]

The example in AV only says that you don't get the Cunning Weapon bonus when you make a weapon attack with a weapon in your other hand. It has no bearing on using the weapon as an implement. The example there is totally irrelevant to the question at hand.

I'm starting to lean toward this interpretation, myself. However, whether or not a staff can be cunning is still up in the air.

ALSO interesting in this case: whereas the aforementioned AV quote specifically bars properties from off-hand WEAPONS being used for a main-hand weapon, the PHB FAQ #19 specifically allows properties from off-hand IMPLEMENTS being used for a main-hand implement. (Or at least, it allows this for rods used by warlocks, which is fairly extrapolated to all implements for all implement users, or else it would be even more messed up.) To which my response is:

Which means that if this is correct and a staff were cunning, if it were used as a weapon in the off-hand it couldn't grant the save penalties to main-hand attacks, but if it were used as an implment, it could? Wow. This seems even worse than the Weapon Focus ruling for consistency...

 

[Oompa]

A staff can be cunning, cause a staff can function as a melee weapon, and the preq of cunning is.. a melee weapon..

 

[Xris Robin]

But you cannot use an Implement Staff's powers or properties when using it as a quarterstaff, so why would the reverse be true?

 

[franzel]

You're missing the point, I think. The example in AV only says that you don't get the Cunning Weapon bonus when you make a weapon attack with a weapon in your other hand. It has no bearing on using the weapon as an implement. The example there is totally irrelevant to the question at hand.

I see what you're talking about that wasn't my point at all. My point was the discrepancy in the text between cunning weapon itself and the description of using cunning weapon in the start of the weapon section of AV. The off-hand property issue is a side one. For me, the main issue is whether a cunning weapon's property can apply to all powers or only to weapon powers, i.e. powers where the accessory is a weapon.

I'll quote again and spell out what I'm seeing there:

Cunning Weapon

Property: Against any effect delivered with this weapon that a save can end, the target takes a –2 penalty to saving throws.

You could reasonably interpret this property text to apply in any scenario where the weapon is used, whether it is used as a weapon as an accessory for a weapon power or whether it is used as an implement as an accessory for an implement power. HOWEVER, we have this EXTRA text at the beginning of the weapon section which uses the cunning weapon as its example:

For example, a +2 cunning dagger, which bestows a –2 penalty to an enemy’s saving throws against your weapon powers, affects only powers that are delivered using that weapon.

Forget the off-hand, main-hand issue for the moment. That section SPECIFICALLY MENTIONS weapon powers. By doing so, it strongly implies that the property can ONLY be used for weapon powers and not for implement powers. Now obviously, it doesn't specifically exclude implement powers in its example so maybe I'm reading the text too literally. However, we've had confusion and differing opinions on which weapon properties can be used for implement powers (CSR responses have leaned towards only weapon powers, so take that for what it's worth) and in my mind this pushes it towards the weapon power only camp.

Anyway, nothing is settled and this really just needs to be addressed once and for all. R&D needs to tell us what they mean when the use the word "weapon." Do they mean a weapon power or just an item that happens to be a weapon?

 

[Caliban]

But you cannot use an Implement Staff's powers or properties when using it as a quarterstaff, so why would the reverse be true?

Answer

When you are using a magic weapon as an implement, like a Holy Avenger or a Pact Dagger, what benefits do you get from the weapon?

You gain any bonuses listed under Enhancement, Critical and Property.