Forked Thread: Eliminating the "Miss"

[Fifth Element]

For such a system, there would have to be sliding scale of damage dependent on the to-hit roll. For example, rolling a d20 attack against a level 0 humanoid could have DC's of:

1 - miss
2 - 4 one-quarter damage
5 - 9 half damage
10 - 14 three-quarters damage
15 - 19 full damage
20 - double damage

Not necessarily. There's nothing inherently wrong with only having two possible outcomes, half and full damage. You could just as easily argue the other way, that your table above should be broken down into miss, one-eighth damage, one-qaurter, three-eighths, etc.

A player character with an AC different from 10, these DC's would be adjusted accordingly. Also adjustments for STR, DEX, etc ... would have to be factored in.

In fact with such a system, the d20 can be done away with and replaced with a d6 with DC's of:

1 - miss
2 - one-quarter damage
3 - half damage
4 - three-quarters damage
5 - full damage
6 - double damage

That's only easily done if there are no adjustments to the DCs, for ability scores or AC or what have you. It reduced the granularity by a great degree, a -1 penalty using a d6 would translate to a -3.33 penalty using a d20.

 

[Fifth Element]

I like attack rolls. I like the woohoo of hits. I like the groans that go with misses. They are part of a whole. Removing one half devalues the other.

If indeed the "part damage hit" becomes the new miss, as you say, then there's nothing to worry about. You can groan on a part damage hit.

Personally I like some amount of "part damage" hits, but I prefer there still be full misses, at least for certain types of attacks.

 

[ggroy]

Another mechanic is to combine the to-hit and damage into a single d20 attack roll.

For example, a total attack roll is rolling a d20 and adding in the modifiers such as:

- level adjustment
- STR modifier for melee attack
- DEX modifier for ranged attack
- weapons bonuses
- misc adjustments

Rolling a natural 1 is an automatic miss.

The total attack roll is the amount of damage dished out on an opponent.

On the defense side, the AC, Fortitude, Reflex, and Will modifiers are just

AC mod = AC - 10
Fort mod = Fort - 10
Reflex mod = Refl - 10
Will mod = Will - 10

Depending on the attack, the defense mod is the amount of damage a character is resistant to before damage starts to occur. For example, a fighter with an AC mod of +7 (ie. AC 17) can resist 7 points of damage from an attack on its AC. In contrast, a level 1 wizard with an AC mod of 0 (ie. AC 10), has no resistance against any attacks on its AC.

A natural 20 on a d20 attack roll could be done such that any defense resistances is ignored on the opponent, with additional damage made by additional roll.

With such a system, the hit points allocated to the players and badguys will probably have to be scaled up even more, except for maybe the minions.

 

[Korgoth]

Man, I get disappointed in Monopoly when I have all this money and I want to buy Boardwalk and Park Place but I don't land on them. I also get disappointed when they're already owned and I do land on them. How can I play a game, that is supposed to be *fun*, when there's all this disappointment all the time?

I propose that we rename all the spaces in Monopoly "Park Place" and "Boardwalk" when they're unowned. Once they are owned, they are renamed "Baltic Avenue" and "Mediterranean Avenue". The values on the cards will remain unchanged, of course. But then no one will be disappointed.

Also, I get disappointed when I draw from Community Chest and don't get "Win Second Prize in Beauty Contest". We should change all the card titles to that. The game effects can remain the same.

I also get disappointed when I don't get to be the Scotty dog. Why can't I play the character I imagined ahead of time? Why do I get stuck with the result of a random roll? I wanted to pick mine first! Suzie *always* gets to be the Scotty dog! This game sux.

 

[Mircoles]

I had a thought of using the damage roll to determine whether or not a hit as occured.

My idea was that you roll your damage and then subtract a modifier based on what defense your target is using or attack is targetting. If your damage is one or more, you hit. If it's zero or less, you miss.

One problem that I run into is how much damage rolls can vary and scaling it for higher level combats.

Though, I haven't really been working on it much either.

 

[Raven Crowking]

If indeed the "part damage hit" becomes the new miss, as you say, then there's nothing to worry about. You can groan on a part damage hit.

The "part damage hit" becoming the new miss doesn't change that both hitting and missing have become devalued. It just changes the bar for those who want all-winning all the time.

Personally, I would never want to play a game with someone who couldn't have fun in a game where you could miss. I would much rather play with people able to deal with some small amount of disappointment.

The term "adult behaviour" comes to mind.


RC

 

[ggroy]

I had a thought of using the damage roll to determine whether or not a hit as occured.

My idea was that you roll your damage and then subtract a modifier based on what defense your target is using or attack is targetting. If your damage is one or more, you hit. If it's zero or less, you miss.

One problem that I run into is how much damage rolls can vary and scaling it for higher level combats.

Though, I haven't really been working on it much either.

In the system I mentioned a few posts up, one could replace the d20 with a d10 for the attack roll (where auto fail is rolling a 1, and auto crit is rolling a 10). Less variability in the attack roll, but harder to damage an opponent with a high AC mod.

Or for that matter, a d12 could also be used or 3d6 or 4d6, etc ... depending on how much variability one wants for a combined to-hit/damage attack roll.

To be more radical, if every player has a laptop in the game, in principle non-standard "digital dice" can be used, such as d21, d15, d9, d22, etc ... for a uniform distribution of random numbers between 1 and the maximum number on a die. Different weapons, spells, etc ... can be allocated a different "digital die", instead of a d20 for the attack roll.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

When considering such an idea, one might want to ask what is to be achieved with it.

1) Eliminate the disappointment of the Miss. I think that will fail. A "weak hit" will be the new miss.

2) Reduce the disappointment of the Miss. I think that is possible. Specifically - you can sometimes kill an opponent even with a "weak hit".

3) Focus more on the decision making then on luck. If becomes more important to use spells or powers at the right time then to get them "through".

4) Reduce the number of dice rolls to speed up play. If you eliminate the difference between hit and damage roll, you can roll only one of them. The question is if determining "weak hit" and "full hit" (and whatever steps in between) will still take the same or more time.


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A "power-based" approach:
Three degrees of success: Minor, Moderate or Major. A roll of 1-5 is minor, a roll of 6-15 is moderate, and a roll of 16+ is major.
Attack/Damage rolls are basically 1d20 + Weapon or Implement + Ability Modifier. Subtract targets defense from that value. (A Plate Armor might give a defense of 8, the same as a Leather Armor and a Dex of 22). Weapon or Implement damage might not be rolled and instead be static values
I assume that damage is based on the implement used, not on the power.

At-Will Powers: Effect is generated on a Major Success
Encounter Powers: Gain Benefit on Moderate and better benefit on Major success. Minor Success does not expend power.
Daily Powers: Increasingly better benefits are gained on Minor, Moderate and Major benefits.

Examples:

Tide of Iron (At-Will):
Minor: 1W + STR damage
Moderate: 1W + STR damage
Major: 1W + STR damage and Push target 1 square.

Sweeping Blow (Encounter)
Minor: 1W + STR damage
Moderate: 1W + STR damage and the target is knocked prone.
Major: 2W + STR damage and the target is knocked prone.

Brutal Strike (Daily):
Minor: 2W + STR damage
Moderate: 3W + STR damage
Major: 4W + STR damage

Scorching Burst:
Minor: Area Burst 1; INT damage
Moderate: Area Burst ; INT damage
Major: Area Burst 1; 1I + INT damage

Fireball:
Minor: Area Burst 1: 1I + INT damage
Moderate: Area Burst: 1 2W + INT damage
Major: Area Burst 2: 3W + INT damage.

You select targets and similar things after you have determined the d20 roll.

----

A token based approach:
Minor: Gain or spend one token; 1W+ABILITY or 1I+ABILITY damage.
Moderate:Gain or spend 3 tokens; 1W+ABILITY or 1I+ABILITY damage.
Major: Gain or spend 5 tokens; 11W+ABILITY or 1I+ABILITY damage.

Tokens can be spend to gain certain benefits depending on your abilities, class, role, race, feats.
For example:
1 Token: +1W or +1I damage; Area or Close Burst 1, Close Blast 2, Make one Save
3 Token: +2W or +2I damage; Area or Close Burst 2, Close Blast 4, Spend a Healing Surge or make Saves against all effects
5 Token: +3W or +3I damage; Area or Close Burst 3, Cose Blast 6, Gain temporary hit points as if spend a Healing Surge or end one effect

 

[Jack Daniel]

Hm. I think I'm starting to understand why the original thread was locked. It's not because talking about 5e per se is flame bait. It's because talking about the slaughter of sacred cows is flame bait.

To everybody so far who has actually contributed to the discussion in some meaningful way: hey, thanks!

To everybody who has taken the time to post some bit of reactionary nonsense that boils down to, "the OP doesn't like missing his attack rolls, and that makes him a whiney-baby," thanks for being so thoughtful and "mature."

I'm talking about a house rule here that makes D&D combats significantly more lethal for the PCs. Remember (as 3e Unearthed Arcana drilled into our heads), any little tweak to the game that makes combat deadlier is something that the PCs have to bear the brunt of in every single combat in the game.

But there are other mechanical considerations that come with something like this. RPGs where damage is dealt on 95% of all attacks are certainly playable, as long as healing is readily available. (I'm thinking of Final Fantasy and every other computer RPG ever here.) But in D&D specifically, what happens when the "missed attack," a factor determined almost entirely by the attacker's to-hit chance and the defender's AC, still deals half damage to the PC? It devalues armor (whch is now soaking 50% of weapon damage, rather than 100% of it, on missed attack rolls), weakening the "trade in value" of slower speed and heavy encumbrance vs. better defenses. Bad idea in a game centered around jousting medeival knights; great idea if the DM is trying to run a swashbuckling campaign. It's just one example of how altered game mechanics might re-enforce a particular feel that DM is shooting for.

 

[phloog]

How about this if you really are upset about misses, or if you have a character who's having a string of bad luck;

I don't so much like having ANY damage strike a target on a miss, but if you're looking for non-trivial game impact, so that those who miss still feel like they're helping, why not try this Brilliant Idea The PHlooG Has Labeled As Brilliant Without Testing or Even Really Thinking Too Much About?

On a miss, hand the player who missed a token of some kind, indicating that they have missed, but that they have had Impact to be Named Later (I love upper case letters!!!). If they miss more than once, they get another, but they can never hold more than two (or maybe after testing you decide they can hold their level).

Later in the fight, if ANOTHER character misses by a number <= the number of tokens, a single character can declare and (more importantly) DESCRIBE some situation that arose from their miss, and grant this current attacker a bonus to their roll equal to their tokens, thus turning the miss into a hit - this costs ALL the tokens, regardless of how big the gap was:

(I have two tokens, and Lou misses by two)...I say: The beast was put off balance a bit by my rapier thrust, as I attempted to force him to open his defenses, allowing Lou's strike to land.

The missing player has an impact. But it is also possible that their friends are rolling really well...allow the use of tokens to modify the DAMAGE done by a friend's attack in the same way.

As a third effect, allow the usage of tokens to modify the player's own next attack.

You might also choose to be a bit more harsh and force usage PRIOR to a roll in all three cases, but this leads to the opportunity where the first person missing feels like a jerk when the 2nd misses, and the 2nd feels they have wasted their own attack AND the 1st's token...so it should be retro, I think

worth fiddling with?