D&D 4E Former 4E doubter , I have high hopes now

[Bluenose]

Personally I just don't like a lot of what I see out of 4e. This doesn't mean I don't like D&D, it is my favorite hobby one that I've participated in for just over 20 years now. What it does mean is that it's moving away from things which have defined it and I worry for the future of the game.

This is something I see a lot, and I really would like to know which particular things it is. I can understand if you don't like the rules changes, as some of them may not be to my taste. However, there's a lot of people saying that changes to the implied background mean that 4e isn't really going to be D&D any more, and that bothers me a lot more. One simple fact is that there's a lot of people (I'm one) with homebrew game worlds that already differed in significant ways from the normal D&D style. So I don't think it's fair to complain about changes to the implied background being enough to make 4e not D&D any more. I'm interested to hear whether other people feel the same way.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

I was THRILLED by the news of the release of 4e.

I was THRILLED by the dismantling of the Great Wheel, mechanical alignment effects, more solid differentiation between demons and devils, 30lvls of play without a clumsy epic system, dumping pseudo-Greyhawk as the core setting and other things. I was also thrilled by the end of PrCs which were a good idea that jumped the shark.

I am NOT THRILLED about the the further progression of D&D into a minis game (squares indeed...didn't use that in AD&D and won't be using that now), tieflings and dragonborn as core races, dragonborn art direction that solidifies my perception that D&D is for kids because the player base isn't sophisticated enough to allow for female creatures...even (non-human hybrid) reptilians (appearance even if not officially reptiles) to NOT have boobs. I don't like racial abilities by level. I loathe what appears to be support for a playstyle that is nearly completely gamist and killing what little simulationist concerns remained in the game under the banner of things being "unfun" as if fun is nothing more than super-cool, super-badass, be all you can be all the time (especially in combat), and other things.

What really turns me off of 4e is what, to my perception anyway, is an increase in the handwave response of "It's D&D it doesn't have to make any sense" whenever anyone criticizes something that lessens the suspension of disbelief. Of course there were unrealistic elements in prior editions of the game, but at least it seemed that attempting to make things make sense was a valid DMing/gaming style. I sense this is no longer the case.

IMO D&D is both insofar as mechanics and playstyle philosophy are concerned for a 11-14yr old demographic. I am not that demographic at 36 and won't support what I see as a game that is not aimed at those above maybe 16-18yrs of age.

Unfortunately I am leaning strongly away from being interested in 4e. I will buy the core books to give 4e a fair break because I have played D&D for 24yrs. However I realize that I am more a RPing game fan than a D&D fan and, based on how I have been playing D&D for the last 20ys, this has always been the case.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Derren]

I was THRILLED by the news of the release of 4e.

I was THRILLED by the dismantling of the Great Wheel, mechanical alignment effects, more solid differentiation between demons and devils, 30lvls of play without a clumsy epic system, dumping pseudo-Greyhawk as the core setting and other things. I was also thrilled by the end of PrCs which were a good idea that jumped the shark.

I am NOT THRILLED about the the further progression of D&D into a minis game (squares indeed...didn't use that in AD&D and won't be using that now), tieflings and dragonborn as core races, dragonborn art direction that solidifies my perception that D&D is for kids because the player base isn't sophisticated enough to allow for female creatures...even (non-human hybrid) reptilians (appearance even if not officially reptiles) to NOT have boobs. I don't like racial abilities by level. I loathe what appears to be support for a playstyle that is nearly completely gamist and killing what little simulationist concerns remained in the game under the banner of things being "unfun" as if fun is nothing more than super-cool, super-badass, be all you can be all the time (especially in combat), and other things.

What really turns me off of 4e is what, to my perception anyway, is an increase in the handwave response of "It's D&D it doesn't have to make any sense" whenever anyone criticizes something that lessens the suspension of disbelief. Of course there were unrealistic elements in prior editions of the game, but at least it seemed that attempting to make things make sense was a valid DMing/gaming style. I sense this is no longer the case.

IMO D&D is both insofar as mechanics and playstyle philosophy are concerned for a 11-14yr old demographic. I am not that demographic at 36 and won't support what I see as a game that is not aimed at those above maybe 16-18yrs of age.

Unfortunately I am leaning strongly away from being interested in 4e. I will buy the core books to give 4e a fair break because I have played D&D for 24yrs. However I realize that I am more a RPing game fan than a D&D fan and, based on how I have been playing D&D for the last 20ys, this has always been the case.



Wyrmshadows

Very well spoken. Whiel i don't agree with all issues I do agree with the core of the message.

 

[scruffygrognard]

Just sayin': Sometimes there's a wide disparity between what you have a right to do and what's a good idea to do.

Without making any judgement on your posts in particular, I'd say that trolling in the 4e forum certainly qualifies as something that one has the right to do but which one shouldn't do regardless.

I'm not trolling, I'm expressing an opinion on a game that (in various forms) I've played since 1981. I've enjoyed every iteration of the game until now and was really hoping to be "sold" on the next edition. So far that hasn't been the case and I have a right to state that, particularly in a thread about 4th edition doubters.

Other than my snarky remark about WotC dumbing down D&D, which was uncalled for, I haven't said anything that was out of line... even after being dogpiled.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

Just sayin': Sometimes there's a wide disparity between what you have a right to do and what's a good idea to do.

Without making any judgement on your posts in particular, I'd say that trolling in the 4e forum certainly qualifies as something that one has the right to do but which one shouldn't do regardless.

However, this isn't the 4e SUPPORT forum. This is the 4e discussion forum. Trolling isn't a good thing, but I think rabid fanboism is equally irksome. Not saying that there is any of that in this thread, just making a general point.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Toryx]

Judging by the debate around here, I'd say the number would just about equal the number of former 4E supporters that now have serious doubts about 4E.

I'd certainly fit in amongst that group. Excited at first, a lot less excited now. And the magic items post certainly didn't help things for me.

Still, I'll withhold final judgement until I hold the shiny new book in my hands.

 

[Desdichado]

I'm not trolling, I'm expressing an opinion on a game that (in various forms) I've played since 1981. I've enjoyed every iteration of the game until now and was really hoping to be "sold" on the next edition. So far that hasn't been the case and I have a right to state that, particularly in a thread about 4th edition doubters.

Other than my snarky remark about WotC dumbing down D&D, which was uncalled for, I haven't said anything that was out of line... even after being dogpiled.

Yes, well, I very specifically said that I was not accusing you of trolling, merely pointing something out in general. Certainly other people have regarded your posts as trollish, so you might want to ask yourself why that is if it's not your intention to troll.

But as for myself, I already said I was making no value judgement on the merits of your posts.

 

[Desdichado]

More on topic:

I was never all that excited about 4e and if anything I'm marginally less so now. I'm cross-posting a large chunk of this paragraph from a similar post I made earlier on Circvs Maximvs, but it certainly applies. In my gaming career, I've learned two things over time.

1) If I've already got a pretty decent game that does something fairly well, I don't need another game that covers the same ground unless it does so in a majorly improved way. 4e looks like an improvement, but not enough to tempt me from what I've already got. Likewise, back in the day I didn't buy Tunnels & Trolls or Rolemaster, or any other number of games that were all D&D in all but brandname and a few details. With the exception of its market position, 4e exactly fits the definition of "yet another fantasy heartbreaker." Also,

2) D&D style fantasy isn't my preferred genre anyway. I don't want to sink hundreds if not thousands of dollars into yet another kinda sorta compromise solution. In the (at his point) unlikely event of my group converting to 4e, I will at most buy the first three books and then bum the rest off other guys in the group as needed. I'll probably end up doing that anyway.

 

[delericho]

I was thrilled back in August. Now I'm just looking for some scraps to re-tool into my 3X stuff.

That largely describes me, too. Except that there are enough, and big enough, flaws in 3.X that I'm considering writing my own system to replace D&D entirely, in the event I don't switch to 4e.

 

[Einan]

I'm looking at the whole thing with cautious optimism. I'm not terribly upset about the cease in production of 3.5, despite the fact that I love the game. There is plenty of 3.5 stuff out there, and I've found myself perfectly capable of developing everything I need that's not already out there.

From a business perspective, I can see where WotC needs to develop a new edition. I can respect that. I'm withholding my judgement until I actually play the game. And even then, I'll probably play a couple of times before forming a final opinion.

Hear, hear!

I go from being optimistic to pessimistic on a daily basis about 4e. Bottom line, I'll give it its chance. I'll probably either run a game or play in one once it comes out and we'll see if it flies. If it doesn't, I've still got that shelf of 3.x stuff I haven't used yet.

And folks, we can disagree without being disagreeable, right?

Einan