D&D General Four Ability Scores

[doctorbadwolf]

The D&D sixsome is more like the QWERTY keyboard.

The QWERTY is bad design. It was literally designed to be bad, to prevent people from typing too quickly. But even decades later, after the original mechanical issues no longer exist, the culture still uses the bad design.

Why does a culture insist on using a bad design?

Part of the reason is, it is bad, but serviceable enough to be adequate. The combination of bad but doable makes people invest enormous personal energy to try to make it work. This investment creates commitment. After everything in the industry is built and standardized around this bad design, there is strong resistance to improving it.

And that is why D&D 5e still has a sixsome.

no, my friend, that is not why.

Also, QWERTY isn’t going anywhere because relearning the implicit memory functions of how to type is a worse proposition in every way than the fairly mild benefits of any other keyboard design.

A better thing to use QWERTY as an analogy for would be “why people make DnD work for playing magical cyberpunk when there is a whole game built to do exactly that”. Using the very very familiar thing is just easier than learning an entirely new system of fairly equal complexity and depth.

None of which is [the whole of] why the 6 scores remain.

6 reigns because it’s better than most alternatives, and it’s very very easy to understand, and thus to learn to use.

 

[Yaarel]

I suggest that gaining the system mastery of the ins and outs of the complex D&D gaming rules and its many options − all of which organize around QWERTY the sixsome, is even a greater personal investment of energy than learning to type.



For example, 5e assigns ‘Perception’ to Wisdom. There is no reason to do this. Even Gary Gygax assigned Perception to Dexterity or Intelligence. Not Wisdom. But why does 5e assign Perception to Wisdom? Because 3e did. Despite being a less good design.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I suggest that gaining the system mastery of the ins and outs of the complex D&D gaming rules and options − all of which organize around QWERTY the sixsome, is even a greater personal investment of energy than learning to type.

It isn’t. You’re objectively incorrect.

This can be proven simply by remembering when people still had to learn to type as a specific learning activity rather than as part of growing up, and watch kids or adults learn to play DnD.

Or more specifically, your strawman style response to me is incorrect because it assumed an argument I didn’t make, ie that system mastery matters and is what should be compared when determining how best to build the game, but if we assume a somewhat more reasonable argument on your end, you’re still wrong, because dnd 5e is very very easy to learn, as are most editions of dnd. Even in the editions that are bothersome to learn, it certainly isn’t the ability scores that trip people up!

 

[Yaarel]

Even a person that fails to gain system mastery of the QWERTY keyboard, can still hunt-and-peck on a keyboard. The keyboard is serviceable despite being bad design.

Even a person that fails to gain system mastery of the ability sixsome, can still hunt-and-peck. Look at a simple character sheet and try to make the best sense of it that one can. It is serviceable enough despite being bad design.

 

[Yaarel]

Using the very very familiar thing is just easier than learning an entirely new system of fairly equal complexity and depth.

That is pretty much the point. That is pretty much why various less good designs have been able to persist within D&D.

 

[Yaarel]

The foursome is inherently intuitive to new players:

"Big Tough Guy"
"Athletic Stunt Guy"

"Smart Guy"
"Heart Guy"

"Well-Rounded Leader Guy" (+2, +2, +2, +2)

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That is pretty much the point. That is pretty much why various less good designs have been able to persist within D&D.

Perhaps, but the 6 scores aren’t an example of that.

The foursome is inherently intuitive to new players:

"Big Tough Guy"
"Athletic Stunt Guy"

"Smart Guy"
"Heart Guy"

"Well-Rounded Leader Guy" (+2, +2, +2, +2)

The 6 are just as intuitive, but less awkward and kludgey.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The thread is about 5e.

It's not so tagged, and the 6-stat sacred cow has grazed all eds.

I don’t care if other editions had dump stats

All eds do. In 4e, it just varied wildly with class/build - and the way 4e paired stats changed the whole dynamic, as well.

In 5e, DEX is noticeably the uberstat simply worth more than the others, almost regardless of class/build, capable of obviating STR, and, unrelated, INT is under-utilized by most classes.

2-3 stats can work for a general game. 4 can work for a game with specific enough tone that “Cool” and “Weird” can be a stat.In a game like dnd, 5-7

The number of stats is really "orthogonal" to the kind of game - Hero and GURPS were both universal build systems in the 80s. One had over a dozen stats (but with different costs ranging from 1/2 a cp to 3 (or 10 for the most valuable figured stat), the other only a handful. Both worked. It's not the number of stats, it's how well they're balanced as alternatives to eachother, and how well the system uses them.

People can grok the 6 stats without having ever played any sort of RPG.

Actually, the INT/WIS divide /frequently/ confuses brand-new players, CHA is a source of confusion, and sometimes the lack of an agility/manual-dexterity divide screws with folks a little, too. The INT/WIS divide is a particular source of considerable confusion among new & veteran D&Ders, alike, in the specific case of Investigation vs Perception, as well.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It's not so tagged, and the 6-stat sacred cow has grazed all eds.
All eds do. In 4e, it just varied wildly with class/build - and the way 4e paired stats changed the whole dynamic, as well.

In 5e, DEX is noticeably the uberstat simply worth more than the others, almost regardless of class/build, capable of obviating STR, and, unrelated, INT is under-utilized by most classes.

The number of stats is really "orthogonal" to the kind of game - Hero and GURPS were both universal build systems in the 80s. One had over a dozen stats (but with different costs ranging from 1/2 a cp to 3 (or 10 for the most valuable figured stat), the other only a handful. Both worked. It's not the number of stats, it's how well they're balanced as alternatives to eachother, and how well the system uses them.

Actually, the INT/WIS divide /frequently/ confuses brand-new players, CHA is a source of confusion, and sometimes the lack of an agility/manual-dexterity divide screws with folks a little, too. The INT/WIS divide is a particular source of considerable confusion among new & veteran D&Ders, alike, in the specific case of Investigation vs Perception, as well.

So, when I say i don’t care about something, your response is to just talk at me more about it? Lol okay.

Have fun, I’ve said any needed response earlier in the thread.

 

[3catcircus]

Gary Gygax has only three abilities − Physical, Mental, and Spiritual − and each is defined by its two subdivisions.

The tertiary subdivisions (‘attributes’) are just numbers that ‘measure’ the proficiency and speed of the ability. They dont change the meaning of the ability.

For example, when Gary Gygax lists the skills for each ability, the skill lists are three: Physical, Mental, and Spiritual.

Not 6. Not 18. But 3.

His gaming system is an ability threesome.

More people than me disagree with you. Mythus Prime uses 3. The full game uses 18.

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