D&D 4E FR 4E SPOILER - Grand Histoy of the Realms info

M.L. Martin

Banshee16 said:
They're definitely taking a big chance with the setting though. The changes of the Chaos War, and the SAGA edition tanked Dragonlance as a setting, and cost them a lot of the fan base. And others liked it. The setting did end up dying though, so I suspect more people disliked it than liked it.


Yeah, but there's evidence to suggest that Dragons of Summer Flame was a deliberate attempt to kill the setting, rather than just move it forward. (There's evidence the other way, too, so the question's murky. The SAGA System and the Fifth Age were an attempt by DL fans on TSR staff to revive the setting under the limits they were given by management--post-DoSF, non-D&D, and possibly a mandate for a diceless game as well. And 'revive' is key--DL as a game line died in mid-1995, and with a whimper at that.)

To put it another way, I've seen a setting assassination attempt, or at least something that could be plausibly argued as such. What we've heard about the FR changes--and I admit, my knowledge of the Realms is limited to most of the Salvatore and Cunningham books--doesn't sound like the same thing.
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M.L. Martin

EricNoah said:
Thing I don't like about a "skip ahead" type of reboot is the PCs miss the most interesting stuff. The Bane/Xvim stuff last time was pretty interesting but was over by the time the setting "started" -- it bothered me so much I took an entire campaign to fill out that event and get the PCs involved in it.

Actually, the upgrade to Monte Cook's Diamond Throne setting (AU to AE) did the same thing. "Two years later, the dragons have returned." If I'd stuck with my AU game, you can bet the PCs would have been involved in that.

On the other hand, this could be a way to solve the novels vs. games problem. If you jump the game over all these Realms-shaking events, you can include them in novels while not forcing the game to follow suit--they've already happened and are accounted for.

I also have to wonder about the possibility of a dual-era FR--one set in 1485 or so, but with sidebars for 1385 and 'here's when the big stuff happens, here's how you can use it in your games if you want to play through it'.


Getting lost in fantasy maps
Matthew L. Martin said:
To put it another way, I've seen a setting assassination attempt, or at least something that could be plausibly argued as such.
A setting assassination would look more like what Gygax pulled at the conclusion of his Gord the Rogue stories set in Greyhawk. :]

Banshee16 said:
Didn't a NASA astronaut try to kill, or threaten to kill, another astronaut involved in a love triangle with a third astronaut?

Love can make simpletons of the smartest of people...



But was the NASA Astronaut a Divine Being with nearly omnipotent Knowledge?

I swear, FR (and D&D gods in general) come off utterly incompetent & stupid.

Even the Greek Gods (not the smartest group to begin with) of Hercules & Xenia seem geniuses in comparison.

FR Gods are most often portrayes as incompetent, moronic, petty, vain, Power Gaming gone mad Power Gamers.

Actually that fits.

Take an Incompetent Power Gamer who thinks he's really smart & knows every rules, give him 20 minutes with Dieties & Demigods & see how he roleplays his character.

You'd get a pretty good representation of how the FR (& other D&D) Gods act 99% of the time.

I tend to ignore 'Canon' in regards to FR gods as the tend to act like Lobotomized Spider Monkeys, & I tend to think gods with a 30 Int & Wis, should act...

Well, Smart.


I was never really keen on gaming in FR because of the " bloat " , but I read and bought a number of the novels. This nonsensical obliteration of everything though takes me from little interest in gaming in the Realms to no interest whatsoever.

It is as if they were taking the paints used to create the picture of the setting, mixed them all together to become a muddy gray, and splashed the bucket on the picture.

the Lorax

First Post
Ruin Explorer said:
I don't mind offing one of Helm and Tyr, but I do think it's lame that it's Helm who got the chop, when he's an interesting, actual FR god, unique to the FR with an unusually "actually LN" personality (instead of the usual "listed as LN, acts either LG or CN, depending on how he feels" LN), and kind of appropriately twerpy.

Whereas Tyr was a mind-blowingly boring interloper from the Norse pantheon who was presumably only there because someone demanded him as their character's god a couple of decades ago in one of Ed Greenwood's campaigns. Unless I'm confusing him, which is possible, as he always bored me to sleep.

Sorry, Helm is just a very thinly disguised Heimdal.


First Post
I liked 2E/3E FR for the possibility of heroic campaigns in a cosmopolitan world. I have no interest in a dark and dreary post-apocalyptic game. How does the setting become more distinct if it's transformed into the generic barbarian darkness of Points of Light, an approach that won't favour the kind of intrigue, plotting groups and city focus that the old Realms had?

What is Tymora, a piece of meat? A passive heroine from an 18th century novel? The chaotic goddess of good luck submits to an arranged marriage to the god of justice? Siamorphe is a demipower, a divine nobody, and not such a huge loss to the House of the Triad. The Tyr/Tymora/Helm thing isn't Greek tragedy, it's nonsensical.

And really, the CCC? I find "Look! Look! The KKK hates orcs!" more ridiculous than Elminster and the Seven Sisters.


JoeGKushner said:
I'll be curious to see what changes in say, technology we'll see. Probably none eh? Guess Gond goes to roll on the wandering Harlot table or something.

See, this is one of two reasons I think the jump in time is more likely to be 10 years than 100. (The other is that jumping 100 years eliminates a large number of named NPCs at a stroke. Basically, any Human, Orc, Half-orc, Half-elf or Halfling is gone, unless they have some means of extending their life... and such means have always been portrayed as being very rare.)

This is the second time magic has become very unstable inside a generation. Huge numbers of wiards are going to die, more will be driven insane, and all those monuments that depend on magic for their support will suddenly fall. Under those circumstances, it is surely logical that the common people will turn to technology and science (which remain reliable) as a replacement. Especially factions such as the Zhentarim, who will see opportunity in the chaos. So, in 100 years, I would expect there to be some significant progress... unless there is some other factor involved (death of Gond, perhaps?).


First Post
Banshee16 said:
Looking at others.....Dark Sun....definitely not cookie cutter. Dragonlance....high fantasy, epic conflict, romance, Iron Kingdoms...nope, Midnight; dark fantasy, fallen world, etc., Eberron, nope, Birthright; sort of, but with a heavy focus on nation-building, politics etc. that isn't present in most settings, Greyhawk.....possibly yes.

Many of them are no "Vanilla Fantasy".

Sure, FR is Vanilla Fantasy - just like GreyHawk.

But it's not like all those other Vanilla Fantasy worlds that are out there in countless novels, RPGs, computer games, and movies. There are several things that set it apart:

Deities that are actively involved in the day-to-day business, who scheme among themselves, and so on.

Talking of deities: The sheer number of them is quite rare. While other settings have maybe 12, the Realms have over 100. Also, there's different pantheons, not just many gods. Some of them moved in from our earth (because the two worlds were supposed to be linked back in the day.)

The Weave: You don't just cast magic, you access the Weave, which is like an interface between spellcaster and raw magic.

That's just three examples. Two of them will probably be gone in 4e: There will be no more weave - wizards will probably just use "mana" - and it sounds as if there won't be more gods than in other settings.

The Realms lose many of the things that set it apart from other Vanilla Fantasy worlds.

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