FR - details on the spellplague

[The Little Raven]

And now (in the new timeline) Unther disappeared and the Dragonborn were dimension shifted in its place... I can't even comment.

In 94 years time, the political map of Europe has changed dramatically, as has the political map in the Middle East. If entire countries can rise, fall, and disappear in the real world in a short amount of time, why would it be any different in the Realms, especially given the presence of magic?

And why is the dragonborn coming into the Realms through extra-dimensional portals a problem, when the elves, dwarves, orcs, Mulan humans, and others did the same thing?

 

[3catcircus]

In 94 years time, the political map of Europe has changed dramatically, as has the political map in the Middle East. If entire countries can rise, fall, and disappear in the real world in a short amount of time, why would it be any different in the Realms, especially given the presence of magic?

Because while, for example, Thuringia, the Palatinate, etc. morphed during the Thirty Years War, Germany as a whole still existed and all of its larger towns and cities weren't blasted into the Ether.

Likewise, even though the Picts, Scots, Normans, Saxons, Romans, etc. all interacted in what is now the UK and various changes took place, London is still London. It went from a tiny little outpost to a huge city, incorporating outlying towns, etc. but it wasn't destroyed.

Basically - those places that have disappeared in our own real-world were overtaken by something else. They didn't just disappear with nothing to replace it. In most of our real world, except for inhospitable places like a desert or jungle, ancient ruins are built upon by those who follow.

It isn't that something changes in FR for a reason (war, merger, etc.), but that this is change just for change's sake.

Changes to rules should never require campaign setting information to change. If a campaign setting is required to be changed to conform to changes in game mechanics, that tells me that the mechanics weren't too sound to begin with.

Perfect example of what I am talking about: Twilight:2000. They went from v1 to v2/v2.2 with no changes to the campaign setting due to mechanics changes. They *did* change the campaign setting due to real-world events making the premise of the campaign setting become OBE, but no changes due to mechanics being changed.

 

[The Little Raven]

Likewise, even though the Picts, Scots, Normans, Saxons, Romans, etc. all interacted in what is now the UK and various changes took place, London is still London. It went from a tiny little outpost to a huge city, incorporating outlying towns, etc. but it wasn't destroyed.

London was abandoned in the 5th century AD, with the Anglo-Saxons forming a new settlement upriver. Then, that settlement was sacked and razed to the ground, and Alfred the Great moved back into the abandoned walls of Londinium. Large swathes of the city were destroyed in fires and (later) bombings.

Modern London is pretty much nothing like Londinium, kinda like Tymanther is nothing like Unther (despite occupying the same geographic area).

They didn't just disappear with nothing to replace it. In most of our real world, except for inhospitable places like a desert or jungle, ancient ruins are built upon by those who follow.

Maybe you didn't read the FR article properly, but nothing just vanishes into thin air with nothing to replace it. Unther was overrun by dragonborn from another world, and they established Tymanther on it's bones. Hell, the article even talks about the ancient ruins of Unther still being adventure spots.

It isn't that something changes in FR for a reason (war, merger, etc.), but that this is change just for change's sake.

According to you, with no evidence. Present some, and this may actually be a discussion point.

Changes to rules should never require campaign setting information to change.

The setting is changing because of more than just a new edition. Enough people have expressed problems with using the Realms in their games that WotC has finally recognized it as an issue.

If a campaign setting is required to be changed to conform to changes in game mechanics, that tells me that the mechanics weren't too sound to begin with.

Well... yeah... 1e and 2e were not sound, and while 3e was a huge leap in the right direction, it has it's own set of problems. And there's not much point keeping the setting's mechanics identical to a previous edition of the game.

 

[Mouseferatu]

It's a mirror of what they're doing with the entirety of 4e: dumping the current fans in an effort to get all new fans. Using brand recognition to present something that is totally different and try to pass it off as the same thing. I don't like it, but hey - I don't have to follow them, right?

Nonsense. WotC's not dropping the "current fans." Some current fans won't follow to 4E, just as they didn't from 2E to 3E, or 1E to 2E, or OD&D to 1E. But to claim that all, or even a majority, of the current fanbase has been left behind is demonstrably false.

Because you can write a novel that has both your name and the Forgotten Realms logo on it? I don't really want to say something like "it's not the REAL Forgotten Realms", because that gets into some philosophical discussions about what is the "real" Realms. But you can see that you are writing for a totally different thing that just has the logo on it and reuses some of the names, right?

You're right. We're not going to get into a philosophical discussion about what the "real" Realms are.

 

[outsider]

This is like saying, "I've always hated the ice cream flavour of Chocolate. I'm glad they've obliterated it and now it tastes like berries, but it's still called Chocolate so I can still say I'm eating Chocolate ice cream. I like berry flavour better."

No, I think it's more like saying "I like hamburgers, but I don't like pickles. Can I please get a hamburger without pickles on it?"

Apparently alot of people don't like pickles and Wizards decided that they'd be better off selling their burgers without pickles.

I like the realms, alot. Used to play in a 2nd ed Realms game. Read plenty of the novels. Played tonnes of the computer games. Even bought a few comics back in the day. That doesn't mean that there's some things I don't like about the realms though. Wizards is removing them. They are also removing some things I -do- like about the realms. However, I'm willing to pay that price for the good changes they are making.

 

[Lackhand]

No, I think it's more like saying "I like hamburgers, but I don't like pickles. Can I please get a hamburger without pickles on it?"

Apparently alot of people don't like pickles and Wizards decided that they'd be better off selling their burgers without pickles.

I like the realms, alot. Used to play in a 2nd ed Realms game. Read plenty of the novels. Played tonnes of the computer games. Even bought a few comics back in the day. That doesn't mean that there's some things I don't like about the realms though. Wizards is removing them. They are also removing some things I -do- like about the realms. However, I'm willing to pay that price for the good changes they are making.

I like the new realms, but I think the metaphor is more properly that we who advocate change *prefer* pickles, and that WotC has added pickles.

Once a pickle has been added to the burger, it's hard to get all the traces back out, y'see.

But you know what? Even if you don't like pickles, they're good for you, every so often. I think this metaphor has officially gotten away from me.

 

[outsider]

Yeah, I was going to post about how I liked how they changed the burger to 100% beef and the mustard to dijon while still having the same great lettuce and sesame seed bun, but I got hungry and had to go get a snack. :\