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[The Little Raven]

IIRC it was mentioned in one of the 1E/2E FR accessories -- 'The Magister', most likely.

Sourcebook and page number. I've seen this claim before, and seen Rich Baker openly ask someone for a published citation (since he also knew that Ed had said it at Candlekeep) and noone provided one. So until there's a published, canon citation, it's just fan wankery.

And whatever Ed says is canon for me, since no one else has the same kind of "understanding" of how the Realms work.

And what is canon to you is not real canon, so it has no bearing on any objective discussion, so the point is moot.

Yet there was the moment when all magic "died" and Netheril fell, as Karsus lost control of the Weave -- IMO this would have been long enough to begin the Spellplague, if it was linked to the death of the deity of magic (or lack of "caretaking").

But there was still a god of magic (since the spell transferred divinity from Mystryl to Karsus), and the Weave was still restrained enough to not destroy the world. An instant later, Mystra was in full effect, changing the rules and all that jazz.

In 1385, Mystra just gets axed and nothing steps in to deal with the repercussions. Nothing. At all. No weak-minded mortal-turned-deity, no reborn goddess, nothing.

Yep, AO was a terrible idea, and I kind of wonder how they're going to keep him in the background in 4E.

Rich Baker said they just won't be mentioning him, because they don't really want to deal with that can of worms.

So the Weave is linked to Mystra's existence? I thought she (along with Azuth) were the Guardians and Caretakers of the Weave -- *not* the "source" of its power.

She's the caretaker. Just like a gardener keeps a garden orderly and clean, she kept the Weave stabilized and set up in the format that was arranged so long ago. She dies, and noone can tend to it, so "nature" takes it's course and it goes wild. Just like a garden that lacks tending.

And if AO took care of the Weave during ToT, why didn't he do so now?

Because he's totally lame and they don't want to use him? Just because a mistake was made in the past to use something like AO doesn't mean they should just repeat that silliness simply because "it's been done before." Sometimes when you recognize past mistakes in continuity, it's best to ignore them and never reference them again.

How did Shar stop Mystra 3.0 from ascending?

Who says she actually did? People suspect that of happening, but whose to say that the bursting of the Weave and the reordering of the cosmos didn't fill that gap without the need for some petty divinity?

And if she was already "born", how come the Weave didn't restructure itself this time?

It's been stated, explicitly, that there is and will be no Mystra replacement.

 

[Primal]

As far as i understand it the missing gods will not be retconned, most of the lesser gods were just not strong enough to keep their realms and powers during the Spellplague. (Which can also be seen as an explanation why Elminster shouldn't retain his Chosen powers.)

Incorrect. The divine essence that Mystra has bestowed in her Chosen is similar to how bestowing Divine Ranks work -- they won't disappear if the "benefactor" dies. And it has been said that not even Mystra could take back those powers. Therefore, the Chosen should retain their abilities, unless, of course, this is either retconned *or* every single Divine Being loses all their Divine Abilities in 4E (i.e. there won't be any deities).

And speaking of the Divine "Power" -- ever since ToT it has been Canon that the power and existence of deities is directly linked to the number of their *worshippers*. If they lose all their worshippers, they "die" of neglect and are banished to the Astral Plane. This means that no 'Exarchs' (i.e. "servitors" without any worshippers) could, in fact, exist in FR. As the designers have said that Exarchs have *no* worshippers, we have a problem. Hmmm... somehow I'm perceiving yet another retcon looming on the horizon... :\

As far as i know the Weave is not the Force, and your interpretation was never part of the official definition.

It's not similar to Force. The Weave surrounds and permeates the world of Toril and its inhabitants -- I think that's canon alright.

That just doesn't make any sense. If the Weave is the source of all life on Toril there shouldn't be any plants growing or animals living in a Dead Magic Zone.

Those Dead/Wild Magic Zones were born during ToT -- IIRC they were never mentioned in any 1E FR book? And therefore it's quite valid to say that this is something the designers forgot back then (Ed probably had nothing to do with them).

You missed a little point - this time Shar and Cyric also destroy Dweomerheart, Mystras own plane! Also, Mystra and Mystryl are arguably not the same deity, so differnt reactions of the Weave to their death seem (to me) not too far fetched.

Mystra 2.0 inherited Mystra 1.0's powers, and Mystra 1.0 was reincarnated Mystryl (same source and level of power, if you ask me). As I already mentioned above, I can't recall Dweomerheart being the source, anchor or "heart" of the Weave -- if you can find a canon reference that says otherwise, feel free to post it. A deity's home plane is not the source of his/her power -- the worshippers are (as I said above). Therefore I cannot see why Dweomerheart's destruction would "trigger" the collapse of the Weave and the Spellplague.

 

[The Little Raven]

The Weave surrounds and permeates the world of Toril and its inhabitants -- I think that's canon alright.

The "inhabitants" part is debatable, since I've yet to see a published canon citation for it's validity.

And your "It's not the Force" comment is slightly amusing. You seem to be claiming that the Weave permeates the physical universe of FR as well as the living inhabitants, and that life cannot exist without the Weave. Well, the Force permeates the physical universe of SW as well as the living inhabitants, and life cannot exist without the Force (since midi-chlorians are required for life, and are Force-based symbiotes). They both allow particular groups of people to accomplish impossible tasks through force of will and practice.

 

[Guild Goodknife]

Incorrect. The divine essence that Mystra has bestowed in her Chosen is similar to how bestowing Divine Ranks work -- they won't disappear if the "benefactor" dies. And it has been said that not even Mystra could take back those powers. Therefore, the Chosen should retain their abilities, unless, of course, this is either retconned *or* every single Divine Being loses all their Divine Abilities in 4E (i.e. there won't be any deities).

My point is: Several lesser deities *lost* their Divine Ranks through the Spellplague, so why should the Chosen be excluded?

And speaking of the Divine "Power" -- ever since ToT it has been Canon that the power and existence of deities is directly linked to the number of their *worshippers*. If they lose all their worshippers, they "die" of neglect and are banished to the Astral Plane. This means that no 'Exarchs' (i.e. "servitors" without any worshippers) could, in fact, exist in FR. As the designers have said that Exarchs have *no* worshippers, we have a problem. Hmmm... somehow I'm perceiving yet another retcon looming on the horizon... :\

I don't see why they should not exist. They just can't be gods, grant spells etc. since they have no worshippers. You don't cease to exist just because no one prays to you. Is this "banishment to the Astral Plane" (which btw changed too because of the SP) a hard rule?

 

[marune]

I strongly reject the current overall attitude of the Candlekeep community, but I'm pretty sure that what Ed writes there is canon until contradicted by a WoTC product.

 

[The Little Raven]

I strongly reject the current overall attitude of the Candlekeep community, but I'm pretty sure that what Ed writes there is canon until contradicted by a WoTC product.

As Wizards of the Coast is the current owner of the Forgotten Realms intellectual property, only products and statements officially approved by them is canon. Since they don't approve his Candlekeep statements, they're not canon.

It's the same deal with Keith Baker and Eberron. Sure, he's "the Eberron dude," but he still doesn't get to make up canon unless it shows up in an official Eberron book.

Sure, hardcore fans feel differently, but hardcore fans are always willing to ignore things that don't fit their vision.

 

[Hussar]

IIRC it was mentioned in one of the 1E/2E FR accessories -- 'The Magister', most likely. And whatever Ed says is canon for me, since no one else has the same kind of "understanding" of how the Realms work.

And, that second bit is why we are talking past eachother. Yes, Ed originated the Realms. And his work with that is greatly appreciated. But, the Realms are far more than what he started with. The Realms are a shared project now. Authorial intent is meaningless. It doesn't matter what he says outside of published works. It's simply not canon and cannot be considered canon.

It's like saying that nothing Erik Mona creates for Greyhawk applies because he doesn't have the same understanding of Greyhawk that EGG did. It doesn't matter. The material is published under the banner of the setting and thus becomes canon.

That you or anyone else likes or doesn't like it doesn't change that fact.

 

[marune]

As Wizards of the Coast is the current owner of the Forgotten Realms intellectual property, only products and statements officially approved by them is canon. Since they don't approve his Candlekeep statements, they're not canon.

IIRC, it was established in his initial contract with TSR when he sold them FR.

I have read messages from FR authors like Steven Schend and Elaine Cunningham that said "Contrary to Ed, I can't answer those questions, etc."

Now I'm sure Keith Baker didn't get the same.

BTW, I consider myself a pretty "hardcore" FR fan and my overall idea of 4E FR, not unlike of 4E in general, is : so refreshing!

So tired of canon-nazi simulationist FR players/DMs

 

[Primal]

My point is: Several lesser deities *lost* their Divine Ranks through the Spellplague, so why should the Chosen be excluded?

I don't see why they should not exist. They just can't be gods, grant spells etc. since they have no worshippers. You don't cease to exist just because no one prays to you. Is this "banishment to the Astral Plane" (which btw changed too because of the SP) a hard rule?

They should not exist because the canon lore says that without worshippers they *die* of neglect, and their bodies end up in the Astral Plane. Of course, 4E may retcon this, but it's the current state of the canon, and has been since ToT.

And I'm not sure how those deities "lost" their Divine Ranks -- it could only happen if they lost their worshippers somehow. Note that the Chosen are not "real" deities, so they (just like any other "semi-divine" beings) are not bound by this rule.

 

[marune]

They should not exist because the canon lore says that without worshippers they *die* of neglect, and their bodies end up in the Astral Plane. Of course, 4E may retcon this, but it's the current state of the canon, and has been since ToT.

First, it is not a retcon, the Spellplague has caused the changes in the cosmology. (Yeah its a far stretch!)

Second, who cares ?, that's how the 4E FR pantheon is built to make it help players & DMs have better D&D games.