D&D 4E Framework for 4e Druid

[kevtar]

Hi all,

I've seen a few different ideas for a 4e druid on both these forums and Wizards' forums. Some of these are very good, but others seem to try to convert the 3.5 druid to 4e instead of creating a 4e druid.

I don't really have a lot of time to fully develop a 4e druid (right now at least), but I have some ideas (along with my sons) that may help create a 4e druid in much the same way Wizards developed a 4e wizard.

1.) Two builds: A "Guardian of Nature" build that allows an animal companion & utilizes divine powers, and a "Nature's Wreaver" build that allows shapechanging and more melee-oriented powers.

1a.) Animal Companion: We don't know how to do this yet.

1b.) Wild Shape: A druid could change into non-combative, innocuous animals (mouse, sparrow, echidnas , etc...) at-will (much like a doppleganger can assume a humanoid form). Other forms would be at-will, encounter, and daily powers.

For instance, a druid could transform into a predatory creature of his/her choice as a Minor action. The attack stats would remain static irrespective of the animal's form. Then, the druid can utilize an at-will power that dealt level appropriate damage, (such as a bite for 1d8 and push 1 square) at 1st level. Maybe an encounter power could be, bite for 1d8 and knock target prone, and a daily would be, bite 1d8, knock target prone, and gain a secondary attack for 2d6.

2.) Some daily utility powers could be Tree Stride and Goodberry.

2a.) Tree Stride would operate like Feystep, in that the druid can teleport 5 squares in any wooded terrain. Basically, this is transport via plants or treestep, or whatever you want to call it.

2b.) Goodberry enables the druid to take a number of berries and imbue with healing power resulting in each berry granting a healing surge that does not count against the PCs' daily allotment of surges.

That's all for now, but we hope that inspires someone to create a 4e druid and not a 3.5 conversion that could be overpowered. lol.

Cheers

 

[generalhenry]

Animal Companion

there are no pets in 4E due to the economy of actions

innocuous animals (mouse, sparrow, echidnas , etc...)

4E is very stingy with flight

 

[kevtar]

Well, since you've totally written-off everything else in the post, I guess I'll reply. I mean, no offense, but how is that really any kind of a constructive critique?


In regard to Animal Companions & the "economy of actions" - if it doesn't work it doesn't work, but I'm sure something could happen. It just comes down to working within the mechanical framework of 4e. Perhaps if you could provide some rationale behind your response I could understand why you say pets & 4e are incompatible.

As far as flight & 4e goes, yes, flight is controlled, but that doesn't eliminate this type of a class feature. It could be that changing into a non-combative, flightless animal is allowed, or perhaps you can fly, but that flight is trimmed to work within the travel constrants of the three tiers - yet in combat, you have to use a power. However, it may work, I simply can't accept "there are no pets" and "4e is stingy with flight" as valid reasons for this type of class and class features to exist.

Cheers

 

[useridunavailable]

there are no pets in 4E due to the economy of actions

There are no pets, per se, but it would be possible to treat a pet similarly to a Flaming Sphere or a Mordankeinen's Sword or something. There is certainly no room for pets as they existed in 3.X, but the same applies to virtually every other aspect of the game. It would be completely reasonable to scale them down to the point that they would fit perfectly into 4th Edition without disrupting game balance.

4E is very stingy with flight

4e seems to be stingy with flight as it pertains to combat and mass overland travel. However, if one were to transform into a sparrow or a canary or something for a while, would that really break anything? How much damage would a canary do? Obviously none. In order to participate in combat, the druid would have to revert to his or her normal form. Such a form would only really be good for 2 things: delivering messages (duration permitting) and scouting (probably not very well without flying low to the ground). Other forms of similar usefulness could include fox, mouse, ferret, and the like. IMO, these wouldn't disrupt the spirit of the rules at all, and they'd add a cool, utilitarian, noncombat dynamic to the druid. Why not? More powerful forms of wild shape (even flying forms) could come in the form of daily powers at higher levels.

 

[generalhenry]

It just comes down to working within the mechanical framework of 4e.

It has nothing to do with the mechanical framework, a pet would work fine mechanically. But it goes against 4E design and balance philosophy.

Besides Druid companions are a 3E thing, 1E and 2E druids where just plain casters for the most part.

http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/char/clas010.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)



As for flight, I wasn't saying it shouldn't be part of the class, I was just pointing out that it needs careful treatment. Druids shouldn't get to fly until they reach Paragon levels and even then it should be limited.


I'm not even that keen on wild shape. Again it's a 3E thing. It's not that I don't think druids should be able to wild shape, I just feel that it's secondary. To me a druid is more about the elements.

 

[EP]

The other thing to consider (which is now one of the first things) is the role of the druid. Striker seems a bit easy and suggests that druid strikers would just turn into werebears and kick butt. Controllers would require the druid to have a massive number of offensive spells and that makes them nothing better than a wizard, but assigning them as leaders just makes them clerics (which was a 2E problem for me). That leaves defender, which makes sense because druids have personal powers of shapeshifting and summon creatures.

Any animal companions would have a limited, one type of use in the game to maintain the balance. For example, if you turn into a bird, it's to fly and nothing more than that. If you turn into a wolf, it's for a bite attack, and so on. If animal companions were one of the base class abilities, then the powers could be toned down slightly to account for the extra pair of paws, but if it becomes a power to summon an animal companion, then this one use theory will be more likely.

And flight could easily be countered with the sustain keyword. You have to concentrate to fly under your own power. Honestly, though, moving through the air is not much different from moving on the ground as far as combat goes. You swoop instead of charge and will likely have only ranged attacks to worry about from ground-based opponents. Otherwise, it's not that big a deal to work out. Odds are that it won't be as categorized as flying in 3E.

The trick is to come up with something unique to make the druid shine as a 4E class. Every original class got a nice tweak (except the ranger and the rogue, but the ranger was worked out better and the rogue just always rocked with sneak attack). Polymorphing claws is the first thing that comes to my mind and partial shapechanging powers so that he can hold his own against the wave of nasties charging the dungeon.

 

[Doc Eldritch]

Wildshape has been with druids for quite some time, not just as a "3e thing". The frequency increased in 3e, and some of the more unusual shapings went up in 3e, but basic animals and elementals have been around MUCH longer.
Animal Companions on the other hand are very much a 3e-ism. And not something I care about too much for druids. If companions of any kind are introduced (and yes, animal companions will be back, I guarantee it), I expect to see it as something most any class can take (even if the flavor differs).

The info WotC has put out about druids already shows they are going to be heavy wildshapers with spellcasting dealing with nature and weather effects. Sounds to me like they are shaping up to be a striker/controller hybrid, which would be cool.

In the meantime, there have been a few very good incarnations of the druid here and I am fiddling with working on a way for "nature priests" to work as druids without major changing (though they will be less druidy than most I suspect).

Some of your ideas seem good, be interesting to see how you develop them. Don't try to pigeonhole the druid into an existing role is my suggestion, from what I have read already, even WotC is planning it to be a hybrid role. The key there is making it not quite as strong as any of the "main" roles, but not weak either.

 

[scholz]

I like Druid in the Controller Vein.

Plants grasp and slow movement
Elements erupt in places injuring groups.

Animals/Vermin are turned or caused to go crazy and attack they allies.
Fog, Fire, forces of nature kind of stuff.
Walls of Thorns. Rock to Mud

1E Druids were the original controllers. They had to be, they had virtually no attack spells. This would be perfect.

 

[generalhenry]

I like Druid in the Controller Vein.

ditto, I see them best done as controllers with some limited healing.

So many iconic druid spells are suited to the role. Druid have tended to be half way between clerics and wizards. I see wildshape the same way I see polymorph self, part of the mix but not the central focus.

Clerics are leaders/controllers I'd like to see Druids as controllers/leaders that's not to say they shouldn't deal damage, and it's not to say they shouldn't shift into wolves and bite people. However I just don't see biting people as the center of the druid archetype.

 

[Syrsuro]

I think that they also should be controllers, and I am slowly working (with a lot of input from the various Druid's already existing on the boards) on my own version.

That said - from what I have seen (mostly the article in Races and Classes) they are planning on the Official Druid (likely to come in PH2) to be heavily focused on Wildshape. This doesn't seem particularily "controllerish", so I'm not sure where they are going with it. Perhaps I will allow two "Builds" - an animalistic druid and a controller druid.

One approach I am considering is summon nature's ally/summon swarm type spells - with a short duration and an emphasis on attacks and control (maybe swarms that block terrain?) this sounds like a different approach to the role of controller. But my ideas are far from complete at this point.

But my starting point will probably be to take some of the Wizard spells are recast them with Druidic Fluff, mixed with 3.x and AD&D Druidic spells that seem appropriate (like Entangle).

Thus Cloud of Daggers might become a swarm of biting insects, Icy Terrain might become a swarm of rats (difficult terrain plus damage), etc. Higher level spells might actually be individual creatures, such as Mordenkainen's Sword becoming a Dire Wolf, while Bigby's Grasping Hands might become two Dire Bears.

As noted - this is a rough idea and far from completely considered. But, when combined with spells like Wall of Thorns, Fog Cloud and the like it ought to allow Druids to feel different while still filling the role of Controller.

Carl