D&D (2024) Free Rules Updated with DMG content.

[Charlaquin]

Assuming you've DMed before, you've never fudged a dice roll?

I have, when I was a less experienced DM and still figuring things out. I don’t any more.

Or if you've only been a player, you'd prefer the DM slavishly adhere to every dice roll even if it leaves dead PCs in their wake more often than not?

Yes, very much so.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

I think there are some cases (e.g. perception or investigation) where rolling in secret is actually better. My complaint isn't about secret vs. open rolls, it's about trust.

Anyway, let me reiterate my previous concern: the official advice for DMs in the book for DMs for the new edition of Dungeons & Dragons The World's Greatest Roleplaying Game is that DM's should railroad their players, while still pretending that this is somehow compatible with player agency*. It then advises DMs that outright lying to their players is one way of achieving this.

2014 at least tried to hedge and offered alternative approaches, however poorly. 2024 is going to teach a new generation of DMs that illusionism** is the correct way to run a game.

Even if you like railroads, I think it should be obvious that people need to opt in to that style of play, not be told that they have agency while the DM plays shenanigans. The fact that this is apparently still controversial in the Year of Our Lord 2024 is saddening.


*This is the infamous 'impossible thing before breakfast', i.e. the claim that one person can control the story while others control their characters. If one person has agency, then the other cannot have compete control!

**For those not familiar with ancient jargon: this is when the DM/GM railroads the players but pretends that they have agency.

There is a lot of sensationalism in this post, intended or not.

When you start off your argument with "the other guy is a jerk/stupid/clueless", you've lost the room.

Could you reposition, this time leaving out the 'obvious' intent to railroad, etc.?

 

[gorice]

There is a lot of sensationalism in this post, intended or not.

When you start off your argument with "the other guy is a jerk/stupid/clueless", you've lost the room.

Could you reposition, this time leaving out the 'obvious' intent to railroad, etc.?

Huh? The 2024 DMG, which I quoted previously in the thread, instructs DM's to prepare an adventure by writing down plot points. That is, the adventure is to be scripted. It also instructs DM's to 'embrace the shared story.'

This is contradictory advice, and therefore bad. You can't let players drive the story and follow a plot.

Then you have this:

Hidden Die Rolls. Hiding your die rolls keeps them mysterious and allows you to alter results if you want to. For example, you could ignore a Critical Hit to save a character’s life. Don’t alter die rolls too often, though, and never let the players know when you fudge a die roll.

In other words: DMs are given license to lie and cheat, but instructed to be discreet about it.

How do these two criticisms interact? In my experience, over decades of play, not to mention the experience of many others, one common way to resolve the contradiction between 'plot points' and 'shared story' is shenanigans. Stuff like arbitrary DCs, outright ignoring things players say, and, of course, fudging the dice. The old Forge jargon for this is 'control'.

It's toxic, unfun, and sanctioned by the book that is supposed to be the official teaching text for dungeon masters.

 

[Scribe]

Huh? The 2024 DMG, which I quoted previously in the thread, instructs DM's to prepare an adventure by writing down plot points. That is, the adventure is to be scripted. It also instructs DM's to 'embrace the shared story.'

This is contradictory advice, and therefore bad. You can't let players drive the story and follow a plot.

Then you have this:

In other words: DMs are given license to lie and cheat, but instructed to be discreet about it.

How do these two criticisms interact? In my experience, over decades of play, not to mention the experience of many others, one common way to resolve the contradiction between 'plot points' and 'shared story' is shenanigans. Stuff like arbitrary DCs, outright ignoring things players say, and, of course, fudging the dice. The old Forge jargon for this is 'control'.

It's toxic, unfun, and sanctioned by the book that is supposed to be the official teaching text for dungeon masters.

I dont see much surprising here.

Plot out a story.
Embrace the 'shared' story. AKA: Work with the players to drive through the plot.
Fudge things, so the story continues instead of letting a PC die.

None of this is conflicting, but if its good or not is up for debate.

 

[abirdcall]

Huh? The 2024 DMG, which I quoted previously in the thread, instructs DM's to prepare an adventure by writing down plot points. That is, the adventure is to be scripted. It also instructs DM's to 'embrace the shared story.'

This is contradictory advice, and therefore bad. You can't let players drive the story and follow a plot.

Then you have this:

In other words: DMs are given license to lie and cheat, but instructed to be discreet about it.

How do these two criticisms interact? In my experience, over decades of play, not to mention the experience of many others, one common way to resolve the contradiction between 'plot points' and 'shared story' is shenanigans. Stuff like arbitrary DCs, outright ignoring things players say, and, of course, fudging the dice. The old Forge jargon for this is 'control'.

It's toxic, unfun, and sanctioned by the book that is supposed to be the official teaching text for dungeon masters.

I like the advice about plot points and embracing the shared story. It's about writing an adventure, not preparing a sandbox. Even with a sandbox, there should still be points of interest that a DM will want to have prepared. If a DM does not need that it is because they have DM'd so much as to be able to call upon their experience to recreate elements of past games.

For a new DM creating an adventure? Good advice. It could have said to write the plot but instead it says to make plot points and embrace changes.

The part though about changing things and lying about it...That is the worst advice/rule I've seen in D&D since pre-3e.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Huh? The 2024 DMG, which I quoted previously in the thread, instructs DM's to prepare an adventure by writing down plot points. That is, the adventure is to be scripted. It also instructs DM's to 'embrace the shared story.'

This is contradictory advice, and therefore bad. You can't let players drive the story and follow a plot.

Then you have this:

In other words: DMs are given license to lie and cheat, but instructed to be discreet about it.

How do these two criticisms interact? In my experience, over decades of play, not to mention the experience of many others, one common way to resolve the contradiction between 'plot points' and 'shared story' is shenanigans. Stuff like arbitrary DCs, outright ignoring things players say, and, of course, fudging the dice. The old Forge jargon for this is 'control'.

It's toxic, unfun, and sanctioned by the book that is supposed to be the official teaching text for dungeon masters.

Again, if it feels bad to you, but not to others, maybe take a minute to explore why that is, instead of doing the "the other guy is a jerk/stupid/clueless" thing. It's unpleasant to read through posts like this. It feels like the point isn't to promote discussion, but to bludgeon others with a personal opinion.

 

[Parmandur]

It's unpleasant to read through posts like this

whisper then don't, there are ways to avoid that.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

whisper then don't, there are ways to avoid that.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying... I don't do that though. I prefer to hear and interact with other opinions rather than shut them out.

 

[bedir than]

Plot points aren't a railroad.

They don't have an order to happen in. They don't even need to happen at all.

 

[Parmandur]

Yeah, I hear what you're saying... I don't do that though. I prefer to hear and interact with other opinions rather than shut them out.

But why subject yourself to what you just described as tedious, repetitive unpleasantness...?