Friday Musing: What If It Wasn't War Games

[Jay Murphy1]

And if ttrpg's did develop out of a different scene it would look like larping before it became a table activity.

 

[Jay Murphy1]

I don't think you can escape a strong literary bent in ttrpg's. I think ttrpg's were designed with literary and narrative experience desired. I believe the urge for a ttrpg came from reading fiction, not playing wargames. I believe Arneson, and unknown many like him, were thinking about how to live the worlds of adventure their favorite literary characters did. ttrpg's literary roots are much stronger and more glaring then any relation with wargames.

 

[Reynard]

I don't think you can escape a strong literary bent in ttrpg's. I think ttrpg's with literary and narrative bent intent. I believe the urge for a ttrpg came from reading fiction, not playing wargames. I believe Arneson, and unknown many like him, were thinking about how to live the worlds of adventure their favorite literary characters did. ttrpg's literary roots are much stronger and more glaring then any relation with wargames.

I think Gygax and Arneson's love of fantasy fiction certainly powerfully influenced their desire to get to TTRPGing, but their wargame design roots defined how they got there.

 

[Jay Murphy1]

Also, why fantasy? I think because this is what the creators were into and this is the literary genre they were interested in experiencing.

 

[Jay Murphy1]

think Gygax and Arneson's love of fantasy fiction certainly powerfully influenced their desire to get to TTRPGing, but their wargame design roots defined how they got there.

Yes, and being the total navel gazer I am when it comes to elf games, I believe they ended up in a wargaming scene when the form started to shape in their minds because strangely enough, within those strict, and sometimes opaque, rule books and coded, rune-like cardboard chits was a story. Or an imaginative person could create a story around a session of play. But it doesn't get you to being Jim Hawkins bargaining for your life with the likes of Long John Silver. I believe the wargame scene provided the insight on how to create a flexible scale of play. Scale, or scope of play design challenges can be tackled with the forms of historical reenactments, theater and literary clubs, but it is not as obvert as would be amoung wargamers where scope and scale are a paramount design concern.

And flexible scope of play is my idea, a concept of mine that this is an essential ingredient for satisfying ttrpg sessions. It is the engine of fascination. And for me at the end of the day is what I'm into ttrpg's for, to be fascinated. Do ttrpg's deliver on this promise? Almost. At least for me. There is still a gap between the fascination I can generate in myself just thinking about games I'm involved in, and the fascination which gets generated at the table in real-time play. They seem to be different psychological experiences and I haven't figured out how to put them together in a unified whole.

 

[Nutation]

I haven't seen much discussion of board games as a possible origin, other than war games and war-game analogues such as Diplomacy.
Imagine a group of girls regularly playing Mystery Date. They want to replace the binary correct/incorrect nature of revealing the mystery boy. Thus, they develop social combat rules for the girl player negotiating with the boy NPC on an agreeable date location, based on how the two are dressed.
Opening a door and debating a boy isn't that different from opening a door and fighting a monster.

 

[Reynard]

I haven't seen much discussion of board games as a possible origin, other than war games and war-game analogues such as Diplomacy.
Imagine a group of girls regularly playing Mystery Date. They want to replace the binary correct/incorrect nature of revealing the mystery boy. Thus, they develop social combat rules for the girl player negotiating with the boy NPC on an agreeable date location, based on how the two are dressed.
Opening a door and debating a boy isn't that different from opening a door and fighting a monster.

As I understand it, board games at the time were really shallow and linear. Eurogames, which I think might have more potential as RPG seeds, didn appear until the mid 80s, I think?

 

[JEB]

Eurogames, which I think might have more potential as RPG seeds, didn appear until the mid 80s, I think?

Late 1970s and early 1980s, per Wikipedia. Though they apparently didn't really succeed outside Europe until the 1990s.

 

[Parmandur]

I thinknyhat RPGs as we know then would not have come into existence at all...just as they had not for centuries prior. It was a very specific set of influences that allowed the spark to happen.

 

[Nutation]

As I understand it, board games at the time were really shallow and linear. Eurogames, which I think might have more potential as RPG seeds, didn appear until the mid 80s, I think?

I think mostly you are right. I tried to think of an example that could embrace roleplaying. There's not much you can do with Chutes and Ladders|Snakes and Ladders, but you might add RP elements to Clue|Cluedo. Especially if Hasbro can monetize it.

Or Mattel. Barbie can invite 5 people to her tea party from this list, with the consequences given for snubbing each one. Make it a campaign; half of them are PCs and will host their own tea parties. The most popular girl at the end of summer wins. Work up a set of social interaction rules so that it's not just Diplomacy with china.