Friday Musing: What If It Wasn't War Games

[Jay Murphy1]

I've looked at board games more of a foil than an origin. The departure point where seekers who yet knew what they were looking for but knew they weren't able to find it in boardgames, though there were aspects of the form which really tried to deliver on the promise of "living" the experience.

 

[Jay Murphy1]

I think mostly you are right. I tried to think of an example that could embrace roleplaying. There's not much you can do with Chutes and Ladders|Snakes and Ladders, but you might add RP elements to Clue|Cluedo. Especially if Hasbro can monetize it.

Or Mattel. Barbie can invite 5 people to her tea party from this list, with the consequences given for snubbing each one. Make it a campaign; half of them are PCs and will host their own tea parties. The most popular girl at the end of summer wins. Work up a set of social interaction rules so that it's not just Diplomacy with china.

I had a friend who would stuff his pockets with $500 from his monopoly game when he came over to play monopoly with the gang. I don't know how close this gets to roleplaying at a boardgame, or superseding the boardgame entirely by making your own private/solo ttrpg out of it... but he is the only person I have ever seen frisked before being allowed a seat at the table.

 

[Jay Murphy1]

Magic Realms, an out of print boardgame from Avalon Hill seemed to be the penultimate attempt at turning the ttrpg experience into a board game. I've only read about it and researched it on boardgamegeek, but that is what it appears to be to me.

 

[kronovan]

I was into boardgames for most of the 70s, mostly due to my older brother being in a club who's members would get any title reputed to be worth playing - partially aided by a high school's budget. Other than the mainstream boardgames published by Mattel, Milton Bradley, Parker Bros, etc., the only others available were the shiny, new & cool, but affordable wargames like Panzer Blitz and Squad Leader. I don't recall much of anything of those that might be conducive to RPing or might inspire RPG rules. Kingmaker maybe, which came out in 74 and had Players acquiring Nobles which were represented on the board by figurines. Outdoor Survival which also came out in the early 70s, is another one that comes to mind. IIRC it had some play mechanics that were a bit like wilderness adventuring in a hex crawl.

There was also a healthy, expanding tabletop miniatures scene in the 70s. I don't know if that was a continuation of an existing community/hobby, or something new and spurned on by wargames - probably a bit of both. I'm a member or a local tabletop miniatures club that's been running for almost 50 years. A number of our formative and older members attribute the advent of RPGs in the late 70s - early 80s as stealing away a big chunk of their community. So as far as they're concerned, there was a trajectory from tabletop miniatures to TTRPGs for at least the player-audience.

 

[Reynard]

I was into boardgames for most of the 70s, mostly due to my older brother being in a club who's members would get any title reputed to be worth playing - partially aided by a high school's budget. Other than the mainstream boardgames published by Mattel, Milton Bradley, Parker Bros, etc., the only others available were the shiny, new & cool, but affordable wargames like Panzer Blitz and Squad Leader. I don't recall much of anything of those that might be conducive to RPing or might inspire RPG rules. Kingmaker maybe, which came out in 74 and had Players acquiring Nobles which were represented on the board by figurines. Outdoor Survival which also came out in the early 70s, is another one that comes to mind. IIRC it had some play mechanics that were a bit like wilderness adventuring in a hex crawl.

There was also a healthy, expanding tabletop miniatures scene in the 70s. I don't know if that was a continuation of an existing community/hobby, or something new and spurned on by wargames - probably a bit of both. I'm a member or a local tabletop miniatures club that's been running for almost 50 years. A number of our formative and older members attribute the advent of RPGs in the late 70s - early 80s as stealing away a big chunk of their community. So as far as they're concerned, there was a trajectory from tabletop miniatures to TTRPGs for at least the player-audience.

At least according to The Game Wizards, there was a defined line between war boardgames and war game rules, and Avalon Hill was the king of the former while TSR was trying to carve out a profitable piece of the latter.

 

[John R Davis]

I think that RPGs would have evolved from improvisation/theatre/parlour games. They would have had a modern genre ( IE the 70s) and maybe a mechanic where you write something on a card or other non-dice thing. Eventually the genre would have spread to maybe horror and SciFi as these movies became big. Then eventually it would have spread to a medieval/fantasy theme.
It may have meant fantasy was less dominate in the field.

 

[pemerton]

Magic Realms, an out of print boardgame from Avalon Hill seemed to be the penultimate attempt at turning the ttrpg experience into a board game. I've only read about it and researched it on boardgamegeek, but that is what it appears to be to me.

I have a copy but have never actually played it. I would go so far as to say that it verges on unplayable.

From the same era, but much more playable, is Mystic Wood.

But would games like these, and Talisman, etc, have been designed if there weren't already RPGs?

 

[Mezuka]

I have a copy but have never actually played it. I would go so far as to say that it verges on unplayable.

From the same era, but much more playable, is Mystic Wood.

But would games like these, and Talisman, etc, have been designed if there weren't already RPGs?

Don't forget that when Arneson went to see Gygax for the first time, in 1972, he brought David Megarry who had his board game Dungeon! First released in 1975 by TSR. It's safe to say Dungeon!, a board game, influenced in some ways the design of 1974 D&D.

wiki" :In a retrospective review of Dungeon! in Black Gate, Bob Byrne said "Dungeon! is the ancestor of all dungeon crawler board games. Descent!, Runebound, the Dungeons and Dragons Adventure Board Game line, Talisman, Dungeonquest, and Star Wars: Imperial Assault: these all find their roots in Dungeon! TSR had a major innovation in not one, but two areas of the gaming industry in 1974-1975."[15]"

 

[Nutation]

Magic Realms, an out of print boardgame from Avalon Hill seemed to be the penultimate attempt at turning the ttrpg experience into a board game. I've only read about it and researched it on boardgamegeek, but that is what it appears to be to me.

I remember examining the components quite a bit and reading the rules, but I never played it.
SPI published a number of games that blended wargames and characters: Freedom in the Galaxy, Swords & Sorcery, War of the Ring. These were wargames with counters representing military units, but they also had character cards with attributes and backgrounds. You could play a character-scale game (less so for Freedom, I think).
A friend and I used the Swords & Sorcery setting to play DragonQuest. There was quite a bit of cultural information that's not really needed in a wargame.

 

[overgeeked]

Don't forget that when Arneson went to see Gygax for the first time, in 1972, he brought David Megarry who had his board game Dungeon! First released in 1975 by TSR. It's safe to say Dungeon!, a board game, influenced in some ways the design of 1974 D&D.

wiki" :In a retrospective review of Dungeon! in Black Gate, Bob Byrne said "Dungeon! is the ancestor of all dungeon crawler board games. Descent!, Runebound, the Dungeons and Dragons Adventure Board Game line, Talisman, Dungeonquest, and Star Wars: Imperial Assault: these all find their roots in Dungeon! TSR had a major innovation in not one, but two areas of the gaming industry in 1974-1975."[15]"

You have that a bit backwards. David Megarry's Dungeon! was inspired by Arneson's Blackmoor game. Also worth noting that TSR published both those games, but neither were created in house. They were both created from or inspired by Dave Arneson's Blackmoor game.