Fun with Magic - Haste, Slow and Dispel Magic

[Thanee]

Ok, let's assume you are facing a group of opponents who have all been hasted.

When you now cast slow on some of them, but not all, what happens with the haste spell?

Is it dispelled? Is only part of the spell dispelled, more precisely the part that targeted those you now target with your slow? What happens with all the other opponents who are hasted?

Can the targets of slow make a save to avoid this?

Same with dispel magic, if you target one such opponent and dispel the haste, what happens with all the other opponents who are hasted?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ovinomancer]

Haste becomes a seperate effect on each of its recipients. It must be dispelled seperately and is independant of the other recipients.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Here's my thinking:

With the dispel magic - I think it would depend how it's cast. IMO, it's down to the difference between a spell and a spell effect.

If it's an area dispel it would hit the topmost 'effect' on each target in the area, this could well vary from target to target. It would be targeting the 'effect' rather than the 'spell'.

It could be cast on 1 target. Then it would go through each 'effect' on them.

Or it could be cast on the Haste spell itself. In which case, I think it would remove the effect from all the subjects from that casting of haste.

I think the Slow spell would work like a dispel targeting the Haste spell...

 

[Darmanicus]

Haste becomes a seperate effect on each of its recipients. It must be dispelled seperately and is independant of the other recipients.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

 

[JimAde]

As far as I know, the target of a spell gets a save, even if it is already the target of the opposite spell (so the targets in the example do get to save against the Slow spell). The SRD is less than helpful on this question:

Spells with Opposite Effects: Spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a spell’s description.

Since it says "apply normally" I assume you get a save.

 

[Plane Sailing]

As far as I know, the target of a spell gets a save, even if it is already the target of the opposite spell (so the targets in the example do get to save against the Slow spell). The SRD is less than helpful on this question:


Since it says "apply normally" I assume you get a save.

Contrariwise I think that the fact that slow automatically counters haste allows it to do so with no saving throw on all those hasted people within its area of effect at the time of casting (if some hasted people had moved out of that area of effect then it wouldn't be able to target them. Vice versa with haste countering slow.

 

[GakToid]

Dispel Magic and Summon Monster

I have a related question.

Lets say you trigger a trap that casts summon monster V and create two celestial lions. You then cast dispel magic on one of the lions, targeting the summon monster V spell.

SRD:
If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

You succeed with your dispel check and the summon monster V spell ends.

Do both lions go away?

We ruled they do, because the spell that summoned them ended. There is no indication that a separate spell is "in effect" on each lion. It's the same spell. It can't be half dispelled.

Was our ruling consistent with the intent of the rules?

-Gak Toid

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

If you have a bunch of hasted characters, and Slow is cast on them, everyone who is in the area of effect of the Slow spell sees its Haste dispelled.

IMO.

AR

 

[shilsen]

Contrariwise I think that the fact that slow automatically counters haste allows it to do so with no saving throw on all those hasted people within its area of effect at the time of casting (if some hasted people had moved out of that area of effect then it wouldn't be able to target them. Vice versa with haste countering slow.

Correct. This was confirmed in the FAQ as follows:

Q: When an opposite spell is used to negate an effect that is already in place (such as using slow spell to counter and dispel a haste spell), is the success of the dispel automatic, or is a level check required? Does the subject or the caster of the spell being countered and dispelled get a saving throw?

A: Two opposite spells simply negate each other. No dispel check is required, no saving throw is allowed, and spell resistance does not apply.

This is in the 3e FAQ, but since there's been no change in 3.5 to the fact that haste negates slow and vice versa, it still applies.

 

[Thanee]

Ok, that answers the saving throw question.

But what about the spell split up question?

Is there any rule, that supports the (quite reasonable) view, that once a spell is cast, it no longer operates as a single spell, but as multiple spells?

Bye
Thanee