Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 4 "The Last of the Starks"

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
*Dany is becoming more villainous--they've made her less likeable for a couple seasons now, preparing us for her death.
She's always come across like that to me. She does not like it when people disagree with her, and is very happy to coldly mete out extreme punishments and executions.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
She's always come across like that to me. She does not like it when people disagree with her, and is very happy to coldly mete out extreme punishments and executions.
That has been a change over time. Initially she was fairly kind, burning the witch only after she murdered her unborn child and turning Drago into a vegetable. Then she tried to avoid just killing the Masters as examples like her advisers suggested, even though they were behind the deaths of many of her people and more coming each day. Later she started punishing people who stood against her with more and more easy. This leap from punishing enemies into it's okay to murder 10,000 innocents in order to get what I want, is a rather large and sudden jump, though.
 

Istbor

Explorer
While I agree with Morus that there has always be a cold ruthlessness to Danny, we are just seeing it expressed more often. They are certainly setting her up to become more villainous or to lose her $**! and have to be dealt with.

I don't know that Varys will feel any burn. That guy is good at getting out ahead of a bad time. I don't really blame him for not knowing about that Iron fleet ambush. I do blame the army in general for having not scouted at all and wonder how Danny didn't see a fleet of ships on such a nice clear day.
 

MarkB

Hero
I don't know that Varys will feel any burn. That guy is good at getting out ahead of a bad time. I don't really blame him for not knowing about that Iron fleet ambush. I do blame the army in general for having not scouted at all and wonder how Danny didn't see a fleet of ships on such a nice clear day.
They were tucked round the side of the island. Which is no excuse - Dany's forces should have sent at least a fast ship or two to scout the place for occupying forces before the entire fleet dropped anchor.
 

Istbor

Explorer
They were tucked round the side of the island. Which is no excuse - Dany's forces should have sent at least a fast ship or two to scout the place for occupying forces before the entire fleet dropped anchor.
I recall the rock jutting up, and yeah, that is hardly an excuse.

What is more, Danny then does a straight dive into these boats instead of winging around that rock to their rears and burning them out. What, are they going to aim through their own sails and rigging? They certainly aren't going to turn all of those ships around before that dragon could fly around behind them.

Sigh...
 

pukunui

Adventurer
I don't know that Varys will feel any burn. That guy is good at getting out ahead of a bad time.
But remember that Melisandre told him they would both die in Westeros.

What is more, Danny then does a straight dive into these boats instead of winging around that rock to their rears and burning them out. What, are they going to aim through their own sails and rigging? They certainly aren't going to turn all of those ships around before that dragon could fly around behind them.
She'd just witnessed Rhaegal die. I don't think she'd have been in the right frame of mind to think that tactically.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
But remember that Melisandre told him they would both die in Westeros.
Yep. I feel like after the exchange between Tyrion and Varys, that Tyrion may be the one to kill Varys. Varys will likely try to kill Daenerys and Tyrion definitely wants to keep her alive.
 

Istbor

Explorer
But remember that Melisandre told him they would both die in Westeros.

She'd just witnessed Rhaegal die. I don't think she'd have been in the right frame of mind to think that tactically.
That is an age old trope is all. Hero or villain too emotional to think clearly. That's not necessarily how humans work. Your body pumping you full of chemicals in a fight or flight situation doesn't make you an idiot.
 
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lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
That is an age old trope is all. Hero or villain too emotional to think clearly. That not necessarily how humans work. Your body pumping you full of chemicals in a fight or flight situation doesn't make you an idiot.
So true.

I mean, I don't need a fight-or-flight situation to be an idiot; it comes all natural-like.
 

variant

Villager
That has been a change over time. Initially she was fairly kind, burning the witch only after she murdered her unborn child and turning Drago into a vegetable. Then she tried to avoid just killing the Masters as examples like her advisers suggested, even though they were behind the deaths of many of her people and more coming each day. Later she started punishing people who stood against her with more and more easy. This leap from punishing enemies into it's okay to murder 10,000 innocents in order to get what I want, is a rather large and sudden jump, though.
Burning someone alive is pretty terrible way to execute someone. I know most people just brushed it aside because it feels justified, but seriously. Jon Snow put an arrow in Mance Rayder to prevent his burning. Also, remember she didn't just do this as a form of execution either, she dreamed that walking into the fire while burning her would hatch dragon eggs. So blood magic.

Is season 2 she locked the two people in a vault to either suffocate or dehydrate to death. That's just torturing someone to death. Again, it was brushed aside by viewers because they betrayed a protagonist. If they deserved execution, she could have done it cleanly.

In season 4 she crucified the masters which is definitely torturing someone to death, and she did it indiscriminately without finding out their guilt or innocence. For one, you don't commit an act of atrocity to punish an act of atrocity, and you don't punish people without finding out their guilt in the crime you punish them for. Once again, ignored by people because they were "evil slavers, and deserved whatever was coming to them" as I often heard.

In season 5 she fed random nobles to her dragons as a means to scare them in not being in the sons of the Harpy. She didn't even know if the person she fed to the dragons were apart of them or not, she just did it. She was even going to feed her allies to them. Again, people justified it because they were "evil former slavers and deserved whatever came to them".

In season 6 she killed two emissaries under parley for their crime of demanding her surrender in a war, which is what emissaries are there for. The book Fire & Blood tells us that not even Aegon the Conqueror would do something like this, and actively avoided it even when Dorne committed really atrocious things during wartime. This is again justified for the same reasons above.

In season 7 she burned two prisoners of war. When Robert rebelled, he took prisoners, and after he was crowned, he gave them an option to kneel. The first instance of Daenerys applying her ruthlessness on Westerosi soil.

In the books, she's even worse. As you see in her mind she's very uncontrollably irrational in these moments, and often regrets her actions once she sees the consequences, but keeps doing them, and slowly as the books go on, she questions her actions less and less. I think the last atrocity we see her commit in the last book, she showed no remorse and that was when she ordered the torture of the innocent wineseller daughters in front of their father.

Daenerys also isn't the most honorable person either. She did trick the slave master to giving her the Unsullied while burning him alive, and stole the emissaries gold who brought gold as an offer for her to sail to Westeros and leave them alone.
 
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variant

Villager
The big difference with Daenerys now is that she's losing both the war and the people around, and we haven't seen how she reacts to such a situation. Her first inclination when anything has ever gone wrong has always been to burn cities and melt castles, only now there's no good voice of reason to tell her don't do that. Her advisors are now Tyrion whom she doesn't really trust, and Varys. If Varys is caught in treason, she won't trust anyone.
 
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variant

Villager
Yeah, the writing is terrible. Go back and look at the dialogue. In seasons 1-4, you have a much better dialogue closer to the books with idioms and phrases of Westeros. This was all replaced with modern dialogue and idioms that should never be uttered by anyone in the show. You also have modern morals being injected into it, the best recent example is how Brienne is embarrassed to be a virgin. She's an unmarried noble lady, she would pride herself on her maiden status.
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
Oh boy..

Kit Harington was doing an interview on PopBuzz when he was asked to describe the season finale with one word and he blurts out "disappointing". He then quickly tried to take it back by saying epic instead, but his tone of voice didn't change.

Then Entertainment Tonight tried asking Emilia Clarke if she was happy with how things ended. She chuckles in a very uncomfortable and embarrassed way. She then goes and says "Best season ever", but again with the same akward tone.

:uhoh:
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
You also have modern morals being injected into it, the best recent example is how Brienne is embarrassed to be a virgin. She's an unmarried noble lady, she would pride herself on her maiden status.
It’s Westeros. It’s not medieval England. She would pride herself on whatever the writers say she prides herself on in that fictional culture.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Oh boy..

Kit Harington was doing an interview on PopBuzz when he was asked to describe the season finale with one word and he blurts out "disappointing". He then quickly tried to take it back by saying epic instead, but his tone of voice didn't change.

Then Entertainment Tonight tried asking Emilia Clarke if she was happy with how things ended. She chuckles in a very uncomfortable and embarrassed way. She then goes and says "Best season ever", but again with the same akward tone.

:uhoh:
I saw those clips and her tone of voice when she said best season ever was mocking.

Leaked spoilers are also out on of them was accurate apparently for episode 4 so if the other 2 are accurate apparently its terrible.

Season 5 is now no longer the worst season.
 

variant

Villager
It’s Westeros. It’s not medieval England. She would pride herself on whatever the writers say she prides herself on in that fictional culture.
Yes, it's Westeros which is heavily grounded in Medieval England. She is not embarrassed to be a maiden in the books. The writers have gone completely against the books in most regards to culture and language since they left the books behind at season 5. There's a reason the show writers left out the "In the name of of the Maid I charge you to protect all women" part of the knighting ceremony.
 
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TarionzCousin

Second Most Angelic Devil Ever
With Rhaegal dead and Ghost staying far to the north, I suspect the series is slowly moving towards the death of magic in Westeros. The White Walkers are gone. Both red priests are dead. I’m betting on Jon dying for good by the end, along with Drogon. Qyburn and The Mountain, too.
That's quite a few characters dying in only two episodes.

Oh, wait: what show is this again? :hmm:
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 4 "The Last of the Starks"

Yes, it's Westeros which is heavily grounded in Medieval England.
Westeros is not even vaguely like medieval England.

If also has a very rough 1000-year band tech level which ranges from pre-Roman Britons to the Renaissance, as do it’s many varied social/political themes.

So I’m not really on board with an argument which requires me to pick one specific aspect of “medieval England” and claim that Westeros not adopting that is a failure of the show. I’d pick dragons first.
 
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