Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 4 "The Last of the Starks"

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
Ambushed by Euron "I Am The Storm" Greyjoy:

- Balon (So sorry, but you are not the storm. Fly away now.)

- Yara at the Kingsmoot. (So sorry, but you are not the queen of the Ironborn. Run away now.)

- Yara and her fleet. (Say hello to The Storm, niece. RIP the Sandsnakes.)

- Theon with her fleet. (If Theon had been a full Ironborn he'd have worn full battle armor, and wouldn't have been able to swim away anyways, yes? Has the show even told the viewers yet why they are called the 'Ironborn', or why they are so feared in sea battles? No? It's the armor, people. They're supposed to be crazy enough to wear full battle armor into a sea battle. Funny thing to note here is that I looked at the wiki for the show and they don't even mention the armor. The very reason why they are the Ironborn doesn't even exist on the show. Go figure.)

- Unsullied (So sorry, but apparently Casterly Rock isn't worth anything anymore. Walk away now.)

- Jamie (So sorry about your relationship. How does she like it? No no, we'll talk later.)

- Cersei (Sorry about the elephants, but now we smash or I sail away, yes?)

- Dany and her fleet. (So sorry about your lack of strategy or tactics. RIP Rhaegal and Missandei. By the way, how was Rhaegal so stunningly slow to react? He wasn't slow at all in the fight against Viserion. Was he injured in his plot armor? And did Dany's fleet really have no scouts at all? Does she even know what a scout is? Back at Meereen she was doing the scouting by herself with her most valuable aides by her side so I guess she really doesn't. Also: man who fights for gold can't afford to get scouts of his own? The Second Sons could have killed their entire opposition leadership in one fell swoop if they'd had just one scout there to spot them.)

- The Viewers. (You think Euron is a thoraway character who is going to get killed quickly? Guess again. So sorry about our lack of character development screentime.)


So yeah. People complain about how Dorne was injured by the lack of character development on the show, and I just look at the poor Ironborn and shake my head.

- - -

Speaking of scouts, has ANYONE on the show heard about them? In the books, Robb beat Jamie at Whispering Wood because he shot down all of the Lannister ravens and killed his scouts before they could alert Jamie's main force about the outriders Robb led in to surprise him. The show makes it seem like Robb teleported 18000 men right into Jamie's formation without anyone spotting them. "By the time they knew what was happening it had already happened", indeed.

Then at Blackwater one single wildfire-ship manages to ambush Stannis and his fleet. That could have been stopped with just one scout ship. Just one. In the books the scale of that battle was so much more massive than the one shown on the show that the wildfire was just one part of the defensive tactics.

At the battle of Oxcross Robb seems to be doing the scouting by himself and a small force (and in a rare sighting, Ghost), which does sort of fit into his character since that's how he got Jamie. Robb is a master tactician (and bad at strategy).

Stannis taking out the wildlings gets a pass from me, since those were all mercenaries on horseback and the wildlings on the show don't seem to have any horses (and the wargs they have on lookout would all be looking at Castle Black. By the way, that one guy on the show who was going into birds is NOT a warg. The show doesn't even know what that word means. A warg skinchanges into wolves or dogs).

The battle at Meereen basically had two opposing forces advancing on it from two different directions, but the unsullied already there being completely surprised by the slavers still seems funny.

The fleet carrying the Unsullied to take Casterly Rock had no scouts at all, it seems.

And the Tyrell army that Jamie destroys is a total non-issue. Jamie claims to have used tactics he learned from Robb at Whispering Wood. Shame that he couldn't tell Dany about that when they finally go after King's Landing.

Jamie getting surprised by Dany is sort of understandable, since he already sent his main force up ahead to King's Landing with the gold and the remainder had just walked across the whole damn continent.
 
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MarkB

Hero
I only see one way for the rulership issue to be resolved peacefully, and it was hinted at during the farewell scenes at Winterfell. It would be a fitting full-circle resolution for Jon.

The anti-dragon ballistae function ridiculously well as anti-ship weapons. They're hand-cranked, so to deliver that much punch they'd need minutes of work by multiple men to re-arm, and yet seemingly they're instantly ready to fire upon the fleet after loosing a volley at Danaerys.
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
The anti-dragon ballistae function ridiculously well as anti-ship weapons. They're hand-cranked, so to deliver that much punch they'd need minutes of work by multiple men to re-arm, and yet seemingly they're instantly ready to fire upon the fleet after loosing a volley at Danaerys.
Bronn did use one all by himself, and re-armed it rather quickly. The ones used against Dany's fleet do have whole teams using them.


I just realized that I accidentally said that Ghost was with Robb. Shame. :p
 

MarkB

Hero
Bronn did use one all by himself, and re-armed it rather quickly. The ones used against Dany's fleet do have whole teams using them.


I just realized that I accidentally said that Ghost was with Robb. Shame. :p
Yeah, but think about it. They strike with enough force to blast through one side of a ship and out the other, taking a large chunk of the hull with them. That means that you have to pump all the kinetic energy it would require to do that into the mechanism by turning a handle. Doing that should take two people the same amount of effort as it would require for them to hack their way through those hulls with axes.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Beats me why Cersei didn't shoot Dany and/or the dragon.

I don't mind idiotic characters but some of them were presented as intelligent in earlier seasons ( Varys, Tyrion, Cersei is cunning, Little finger etc).
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
- Dany and her fleet. (So sorry about your lack of strategy or tactics. RIP Rhaegal and Missandei. By the way, how was Rhaegal so stunningly slow to react? He wasn't slow at all in the fight against Viserion. Was he injured in his plot armor? And did Dany's fleet really have no scouts at all? Does she even know what a scout is? Back at Meereen she was doing the scouting by herself with her most valuable aides by her side so I guess she really doesn't. Also: man who fights for gold can't afford to get scouts of his own? The Second Sons could have killed their entire opposition leadership in one fell swoop if they'd had just one scout there to spot them.)
Ballistae simply are not that accurate at that distance, especially against moving targets, and even more especially when fired from a moving boat that is going over waves. That scene was almost as bad as the Charge of the Night Brigade from last episode.

There's also no way those ships could round the island and get into position to spot and then fire upon the flying dragons without being spotted from the air. It's a frigging fleet!

There was quite a bit more magic travel, too.
 
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jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
- Dany and her fleet. (So sorry about your lack of strategy or tactics. RIP Rhaegal and Missandei. By the way, how was Rhaegal so stunningly slow to react? He wasn't slow at all in the fight against Viserion. Was he injured in his plot armor? And did Dany's fleet really have no scouts at all? Does she even know what a scout is? Back at Meereen she was doing the scouting by herself with her most valuable aides by her side so I guess she really doesn't. Also: man who fights for gold can't afford to get scouts of his own? The Second Sons could have killed their entire opposition leadership in one fell swoop if they'd had just one scout there to spot them.)
Ballistae simply are not that accurate at that distance, especially against moving targets, and even more especially when fired from a moving boat that is going over waves. That scene was almost as bad as the Charge of the Night Brigade from last episode.

There's also no way those ships could round the island and get into position to spot and then fire upon the flying dragons without being spotted from the air. It's a frigging fleet!

There was quite a bit more magic travel, too.
There's a general problem on the show with the incredible accuracy of bows overall. Last episode we got a scene where Arya shooting a wight threatening Sandor was treated as an amazing shot. But was it really?

Jamie's archers were able to hit a flying dragon. Theon was shooting ravens out of the air at the Twins. Ramsay just generally. All of those are elite archers, but have we actually seen anyone doing badly with a bow? Aside from Edmure, which was played for laughs.
 

MarkB

Hero
There's a general problem on the show with the incredible accuracy of bows overall. Last episode we got a scene where Arya shooting a wight threatening Sandor was treated as an amazing shot. But was it really?

Jamie's archers were able to hit a flying dragon. Theon was shooting ravens out of the air at the Twins. Ramsay just generally. All of those are elite archers, but have we actually seen anyone doing badly with a bow? Aside from Edmure, which was played for laughs.
I had the same issue with the Hobbit movies. In Lord of the Rings Legolas's accuracy is at least played as being exceptional, but during the scenes like the barrel-run battle, both elves and dwarves manage ridiculous shots and moves routinely enough that they coordinate them with each other in the full expectation of being able to pull them off 100% reliably, and Bard is considered a failure by the folks of Laketown for having been unable to hit a fast-moving dragon in a firestorm using a fixed-emplacement ballista.
 

Ralif Redhammer

Adventurer
My wife and I were shouting at Jon for just walking away from Ghost. But I imagine that it probably would’ve been more expensive to have a real person interact with a CGI wolf, so they did it that way to cut costs.

I actually liked this episode quite a bit. To me, it got back to the feel of the earlier seasons, with Daenerys having been moving towards a more morally questionable stance, and terrible things happening with a strong emotional impact.

Also, I can’t help but feel that the scene of Varys coughing on the beach, his legs clearly visible, was a direct jibe at the whole hilarious-and-ridiculous “Varys is a Merman” fan theory.

With Rhaegal dead and Ghost staying far to the north, I suspect the series is slowly moving towards the death of magic in Westeros. The White Walkers are gone. Both red priests are dead. I’m betting on Jon dying for good by the end, along with Drogon. Qyburn and The Mountain, too.
 

MarkB

Hero
I'm betting on Jon re-taking his oath to the Night Watch, renouncing all claim to the throne, and heading back to his true home to become King in the North.

The real North, beyond the Wall, outside the Seven Kingdoms, beyond Danaerys's realm. And probably half the people of the northern kingdoms will follow him.
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
In the words of my father:

"You know the real reason why Arya said no to Gendry is because she's all about the reality of the situation. Dany can't make him a lord. She's always assuming things are true before they are. She's not the queen, and it's possible she never will be."
 

MarkB

Hero
In the words of my father:

"You know the real reason why Arya said no to Gendry is because she's all about the reality of the situation. Dany can't make him a lord. She's always assuming things are true before they are. She's not the queen, and it's possible she never will be."
That's assuming that Arya gives a damn whether he's a lord or not. That aside, I appreciate the sentiment - lots of titles being handed out as prizes before the contest is won.
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
Divide and conquer? If either Jon or Dany dies, the other becomes stronger as most of the disputes between their sides evaporate.
I doubt Cersei knows who Jon really is at this point.
She knows he is the nominal leader of the North. And she should know from rumours and spies that there are divided loyalties among their people as to who's really in charge?

We know that they have spies in the north as Qyburn knew really fast about the army of the dead heading towards Winterfell.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I'm betting on Jon re-taking his oath to the Night Watch, renouncing all claim to the throne, and heading back to his true home to become King in the North.

The real North, beyond the Wall, outside the Seven Kingdoms, beyond Danaerys's realm. And probably half the people of the northern kingdoms will follow him.
I can see them splitting the North and South, but not his re-taking of the oath. There's no wall and no White Walkers, so no need for the watch, and a king needs heirs.
 

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