GC 2006 - Ptolus Hardback $120!?!

[tetsujin28]

You know, that's quite a lot I've been called either "bitching" or "whining". In case you missed a clue, I couldn't care less about Ptolus.

The classic mark of trolling: "You know, I really, really don't care about this product. I really don't. But I'm going to bitch and whine and complain and moan about how much you shouldn't either!"

Where's that rolleyes smiley when you really need him?

 

[Waylander the Slayer]

Again, take a deep breath and repeart after me:


RPG's are a luxury, not a necessity.

The car analogy is perfectly apt. The last time i checked, we live in a FREE MARKET society. Demand drives supply and price. A manufacturer, unless an Oligopoly or a monopoly is restricted in what they can do in regard to charging whatever they want for a product. Further, industries are regulated against in being a monopoly etc. I found the XBOX comparison to be funny since microsoft is one of the few monopolies and guess what? they undercut the "small guy" by maintaining a lower price point because they don't need an intially high profit margin for their secondary product lines due to the product positioning of Windowsand the tertierary products attached with it (MS Office). This is a good example of a company trying to create a "Barrier of Entry."

If someone here can highlight how Malhavok is an Oligopoly or Monopoly or have unique market positioning based on which they are pricing whatever they want to regardless of consumer preference please do so. Products have varying price elasticity. Here are several other analogies outside of cars.

Dinnerware: Mikasa/Corning/non brand name product
Bags: Prada/Gucci/ Kenneth Cole/ Krada (no name brad)
Cereal: Smart Start/Special K/ Corn Flakes (all put out by kellogs, just to highlight how a GOOD company creates market positioning in all the different price segments of the market).
Coffee (an oligopoly if not a monopoly): Starbucks/Dunkin Donuts (note the pricing model of Starbucks).

I could provide more examples if need be. As always, people have a CHOICE in the RPG market. You can easily pick up a Phil Reed (just trying to highlight an analogy Phil product which is much cheaper or a Malhavoc product or a free product (there are plenty out there). Can Malhavoc charge what Phil charges and make a net profit or even break even? Does anyone have the Contribution Margin and Break even point for these products? Note that you NEED to exceed your fixed costs. So what are the fixed and variable costs on a product? Let us see and how do they compare?:

FIXED COST:

Employee pay
Distribution Cost.
incurred overhead (based on allocation methodology..i.e you can appropotion costs of utilities etc. to different product line or incurr them in a lump amount.

VARIABLE:

Material cost (net cost will vary based on units produced...more complex, you could have both fixed and variable elements here).
Printing expenses

I believe (purely a guess) that most costs in the industry are fixed. So how is Phil able to produce a product at such a low cost- less fixed cost. i.e very few "employees" (probably himself and a few freelancers where needed) and by producing the product in an inexpensive medium where he does not incur high manufacturing costs (print vs. pdf).

Does Malhavoc incurr the same costs for this product? or are his overheads higher? Just a meander through the artists' list, the credits listed, the production value, the "new binding used" etc. should give one a very good idea. Also, does this have the same cost element as a $40 book (which is common and hypotheticaly the medium price range). There are plenty of samples of this out there such as the previews for "Thieves World" or Arcania Unearthed etc. If one examines the samples for these, to that of Plotus, there is a distinct difference in both Quality and Quantity. Note, that the higher page count and all the "frills" also is making this a much more expensive product to produce.

So it is both practical and sensible -Malhavoc does need to remain solvent and be able to pay it's employees and give those in charge a decent living, unless of course the argument is to the contrary (i.e produce a product, charge an incorrect price, go belly up and not pay the freelancers), or that the product is "too expensive" from an individual point of view (This product is out or my price range and the company is at fault for that regardless of the economics involved). Note that no one is ripping "you" off or pricing anyone "out of the market" as the market pricing goes from free to $120.Are there products an individual cannot afford? of course (unless someone wants to consider communism or socialism as a viable living alternative). But do we have a choice? absolutely!!!!

As always, celebrate the fact that you have a choice and that there are so many different and variant products that cover all segments of the market (think back to the old TSR days).

 

[Numion]

It's a fact (maybe a sad fact) in a capitalistic world that if something is priced out of your means, you're not in the target audience, and the product just isn't meant for you.

Gamers are traditionally striving more for equality in everything (maybe many gamers felt they got the short stick in school social hierarchy, and it stems from that), which is a good thing, but will result in conflicts when reality happens.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Flawed reasoning according to you? Some of us have different opinions, it doesnt make it flawed because you say so.

You reason that if Ptolus is made other game companies will follow suit and soon no products will be produced at a low price point. That is, simply, flawed. You start from an unreasonable assuption and proceed to an incorrect conclusion. just because it is an opinion doesn't mean it is automatically valid or correct.

A. I wont even consider buying it at that price.

Ok - so why are you upset again? If the book was 3 $40 books would that be OK? (You ignored this once already I assume the answer is yes).

B. Yes and No to being infuriated. No in a sense Im glad companies produce High Quality work, alot of products didnt meet some expectations. Yes because $120 is too damn expensive for this kind of product.
I agree that companies are around to make money, but $120 is way over the top IMO. I am a Monte Cook fan as well, but I dont think that his name carries that kind of weight. We've all seen how good his works are and we all can agree on that at least. There are also many other talented designers out there... Chris Perkins, Sean Reynolds, Bruce Cordell, Greg Vaughan, Dave Noonan, Skip Williams, Andy Collins, Mike Mearls, Lotsa Necromancer Games writers, etc. I dont hold Monte Cook above all of them

I'm not a Monte Cook fan so maybe I don't have the emtional baggage invested in this product. Yes you certainly have learned a lot of designers names. What was the point of this part of your post again?

My fear is that some fans will not be able to afford it (and some fans will) which kind of hurts our hobby as a whole. Its eliteist in a sense, if you can afford it... you can play in Monte's world. Monte himself stated there wouldnt be a Ptolus light, Ptolus is Ptolus or somesuch, etc (dont remember the exact quote). I wonder how his fans that cant afford it (for whatever reason) feel about it.

Oh boo-hoo. Your concerned not everyone can afford it? Really?! Can everyone afford the deluxe version of Lord of the Rings (with the colour plates, bookmark ribbon and all appendices) it goes for about $120 around these parts. Should its price be lowered because the guy at the local 7-11 can afford it. I don't see it as eliteist - just something called capitialism. Moan and rail all you like about Monte "excluding" the poor, poor gamers of the world but this arguement doesn't hold any water.

The other fear is that the books are already expensive, Id hate to see more companies following suit and making more books with astronomical price tags. Books are bound to increase in price eventually, but they do so steadily at a lower rate. You vote with your wallet, looks like most people here vote for an evolutionary leap in pricing for RPG material.
We must all be very well off.

I find it very difficult to believe that we are suddenly going to see an end to cheaper products because Monte Cook brought out Ptolus. I find it so hard to believe in fact, that I'm afraid this discussion is pretty much pointless.

 

[Pielorinho]

take a deep breath

Moderator's Notes:

Excellent advice for everybody. Take a deep breath and step back from this discussion for a moment, please, to review the forum's rules. Once you've done so, please read the rest of this post.

First, if you're wondering where the rollseyes smiley meant, that's a sure sign that your post needs to have some vitriol edited away. The rollseyes smiley was removed because it conveys a rudeness inappropriate to these boards.

Second, accusations of whining and bitching are inappropriate for these forums. Please stop.

Third, if people disagree with you in a discussion, it's almost never a good idea to tell them that they "just don't get it."

Fourth, discussions of the merits of capitalism are forbidden under our "no politics" rule. If you find that your advocacy of, or condemnation of, a publisher hinges on your advocacy of or condemnation of the free market, you're entering territory beyond what these boards can support.

Even when your opponent in a debate is obviously a butthead*, you need to maintain at least a semblance of courtesy, civility, and respect toward your opponent. If you're finding yourself unable to do that in this or any other thread, the best thing to do is to say out loud, "What a butthead!" and then go read another thread instead.

If you have any questions or rebuttals of this post, please report the post and list your questions/rebuttals in the report field.

Thanks!
Daniel/Pielorinho

* Obvious, of course, to you; consider what may be obvious to your opponent about you.

 

[Vocenoctum]

[edited out explanation of the motives of this post]
The topic of RPG pricing came up, and it was put forth that Monte Cook may have raised the pricing bar. Others said "the market will correct it".
I said to the effect of "I'm not worried about Ptolus, but at some point a product I might want, that would have been a medium range (which, actually, is a misnomer, since it's the "old" high range of 40-60 I'm talking about) product might instead be produced as an exclusively High Range (100+) product, and I will lose out on a product I want because of frills I don't want.

Ptolus is Monte's baby, he can produce it as he sees fit, and I'm sure it will be profitable for him. (Especially the payment option, that'll get a few people that wouldn't spend 120 at once) At some point, someone will see that it was profitable, and similar products may come through that are just there for the price point. (As demonstrated by the overabundance of Hardcovers in the market, to justify a higher price, you add stuff until it's considered a value for that price.)
[edited out summary of argument over terms like "whining." Vonenoctum, please see the post above yours, and email me or report the post if you have any questions on it.--Pielorinho]

 

[Vocenoctum]

edit: Vonenoctum, please see my notes above, and do not post further discussion about the issue of who's made what accusations against whom. THanks!--Pielorinho

 

[Dinkeldog]

Okay, Daniel beat me to an initial posting here, but here's an additional moderator's note:

Responding to a post before the note does not excuse behavior after the note. From this point on, expect everyone has as fine a motive in posting as you do.

As for me, I was looking forward to Ptolus, but as a full-time student, it's going to be a much harder sell now. The other option of 3 separate PDFs might cover me, though. I need to do more research over at Monte's site.

 

[Pielorinho]

Posting as a member, not as a moderator:

I've got nothing against high-end luxury products, whether they're games or caviar. I'm just not in a position to purchase either of them. I'll probably flip through Ptolus at GenCon, and I'd suggest Malhavoc provide another luxury add-on for the books: a droolguard.

Daniel

 

[Vocenoctum]

Could you explain why the car analogy doesn't work, please?

On the face of it, it looks like a reasonable analogy.

Can you explain why the XBox 360 Bundles analogy doesn't work? It seems like folks only want to use their viewpoint without seeing the other side...

But really, here's why I don't see the car analogy as really important. A car is generally regarded as a necessity, though it's not. Books aren't, so it's entirely up to the purchase and it's percieved value. Car prices are highly competitive in fixed catagories, where RPG prices aren't. Plenty of cars are sold in both luxury models and normal models, whereas Ptolus isn't. A Ferrarri performs differently than a lower model car. In many cases, having that luxury car is the point of that luxury car. ("I spent $100,000 so people would know I could spend $100,000 on a car.")

There are some similarities, but on the whole I find comparing Ptolus to a Ferrari to be off base.

Now, to me, both a sports or sporty car and a RPG campaign product are luxury items. You can survive without a car, or with a much, much cheaper car. Same as you can make up your own campaign, or buy something fairly cheap (maybe a PDF). A Type-R is like the FR campaign - a bit more expensive. And the Porsche is like the Ptolus campaign.

Now no analogy is perfect, so could you please explain why the main points are different?

Cheers,
Liam

Because the RPG market and the luxury car market are different. I'd compare it more to Harley of years back, though my analogy won't work perfectly since I'm not a Harley Guy. They were almost gone, but kept alive by fans. Now, a lot of those folks that kept them alive can't afford one.
Now, RPGs won't break out into a mass appeal or anything, but lately it seems that the RPG market doesn't consider the fanbase in it's decision. Though that could just be the ENWorld vibe lately.