GC 2006 - Ptolus Hardback $120!?!

[Vocenoctum]

edit: Vonenoctum, please see my notes above, and do not post further discussion about the issue of who's made what accusations against whom. THanks!--Pielorinho

Sorry, I didn't think my post came under any of the points you made, hence my posting it.
That goes for the one I just posted too, not sure which of the content is discussion and which is considered calling someone out, sorry if that one needs editing too.

 

[WildWeasel]

I've missed something here, sorry. Are you saying I've been trolling because they said I was whining? Or have I been trolling because I don't want Ptolus?
If you think I'm secretly a Monte Cook fan, and hiding my inner shame that I can't afford Ptolus, then (assuming you have Board Search priveledges that is) go back and read any of my posts in any Monte Cook related thread.

Let me see if I can illustrate why I got involved in this thread.

The topic of RPG pricing came up, and it was put forth that Monte Cook may have raised the pricing bar. Others said "the market will correct it".
I said to the effect of "I'm not worried about Ptolus, but at some point a product I might want, that would have been a medium range (which, actually, is a misnomer, since it's the "old" high range of 40-60 I'm talking about) product might instead be produced as an exclusively High Range (100+) product, and I will lose out on a product I want because of frills I don't want.

Ptolus is Monte's baby, he can produce it as he sees fit, and I'm sure it will be profitable for him. (Especially the payment option, that'll get a few people that wouldn't spend 120 at once) At some point, someone will see that it was profitable, and similar products may come through that are just there for the price point. (As demonstrated by the overabundance of Hardcovers in the market, to justify a higher price, you add stuff until it's considered a value for that price.)

So, I've been accused of "whining" about the pricing on a product that I will never buy, regardless of pricing, while what I've actually been saying has been pointedly ignored.

No, it has been addressed. People have pointed out that publishers are under no obligation to put things out for the gaming market as a whole, or even any given part of it. Does it suck that you're being left out of the target audience? Maybe for you, but that's the breaks.

As for Ptolus and future similar products: right now, by every indication, Ptolus is offering $120 worth of content, not even counting the CD (whether that is content that one is interested in and going to use and derive utility from is an entirely seperate question). It is easily the equal, if not better, than four $30 books in that regard. If you're buying the book intending to use it for the content, then all those frills are effectively free. Nevermind that a lot of those "frills" (e.g. the ribbon bookmarks, use of color in a travel guide-style layout that imrpoves the usability of the book) actually make it a more functional product in terms of accessing and making use of that content.

What will happen if other companies follow suit? It depends on what they are trying to do wit those products, if they justify havign the $100+ price tag. If we see more Ptolus style products, with te appropiate amount of quality content, and that takes advantages of options that that price point opens up, then I'm sure they'll do well, and we'll continue to see them (albiet at a relatively slow rate). However, if companies cram stuff together into one huge volume and shove it out the door, without going "How does making this a megaproduct allow us to make it a better one?", then it will crash and burn.

Meanwhile, other companies (heck, even those same companies) will continue producing producta all across the spectrum.

As a slight tangent, about the "overabundence" hardcovers, this isn't a ploy to justfy a higher price. Several companies large and small (WotC, WW, SJG, Atlas, etc.) have noted and publically recognized that hardcovers sell more units, and have better sustained sales over time. They don't make more money because there's two or three extra dollars on the MSRP, but because they sell notedly more than they do of equivalent softcovers.

 

[Vocenoctum]

As for Ptolus and future similar products: right now, by every indication, Ptolus is offering $120 worth of content, not even counting the CD (whether that is content that one is interested in and going to use and derive utility from is an entirely seperate question). It is easily the equal, if not better, than four $30 books in that regard.

I compared it to the two Iron Kingdom's guides, totally $80 for 800 pages and Monte's own discussion that it was a er "frilly" product, hence the higher price tag.

I think the preorder package with the 5 PG's and the print adventure is what everyone should be buying if they want the product, best bang for the buck.

 

[Pielorinho]

Sorry, I didn't think my post came under any of the points you made, hence my posting it.
That goes for the one I just posted too, not sure which of the content is discussion and which is considered calling someone out, sorry if that one needs editing too.

Hey, no harm, no foul; I hope it's clearer now! Your last post [edit: two posts back by the time I got this posted] looked fine, with only one small problem:

It seems like folks only want to use their viewpoint without seeing the other side...

Especially in heated arguments, it's a good idea not to guess at the motives or desires of your debate opponents.

And with that, let's move on; it looks like things are calming down. If anyone sees any more problems in this thread, please do report them. Many thanks!

Daniel

 

[Michael Morris]

I've always found it amusing that many gamers want 2005 quality books on 1985 printer costs. Sorry folks, but the world don't work that way. Go to Barnes & Noble and look at the prices of books outside the RPG section that don't have million copy print runs (per unit cost drops with # of copies made, but even WotC rarely cracks the 50,000 copy mark except for the core rules). You'll find they typically cost one and a half times to twice as much as game books of the same size.

For comparison, I've seen 600 page college textbooks run for $200 - $300 a pop without a single sketch in them - and that was 10 years ago. So, if anything, the RPG book market is undervalued, not overvalued.

 

[Vocenoctum]

No, it has been addressed. People have pointed out that publishers are under no obligation to put things out for the gaming market as a whole, or even any given part of it. Does it suck that you're being left out of the target audience? Maybe for you, but that's the breaks.

::snip::

As a slight tangent, about the "overabundence" hardcovers, this isn't a ploy to justfy a higher price. Several companies large and small (WotC, WW, SJG, Atlas, etc.) have noted and publically recognized that hardcovers sell more units, and have better sustained sales over time. They don't make more money because there's two or three extra dollars on the MSRP, but because they sell notedly more than they do of equivalent softcovers.

It works both ways really, some products will be made because that's what the audience demands, some will be that way, simply because that's what the audience will put up with. It's always disheartening when folks are told that it's just tough breaks that they're left out of the target audience, better luck next time. I think the hobby is too small for that attitude, same as "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I've often heard both said here and there, and then the next day a discussion of how the industry is in a slump.

 

[WildWeasel]

I compared it to the two Iron Kingdom's guides, totally $80 for 800 pages and Monte's own discussion that it was a er "frilly" product, hence the higher price tag.

I think the preorder package with the 5 PG's and the print adventure is what everyone should be buying if they want the product, best bang for the buck.

The preorder certianly is an even better deal. But for what it is, the straight Ptolus package is certianly worth the price. Yeah, it is is frilly product, but 1) that's the part of the point and 2) those frills, in and of themselves, add a lot of functionality to the product.

The IK books are a couple of the best cases of how much content you get for your money. They are just that, best case, and not indicitave of the norm (keep in mind they also came out years late, which added a lot of development time most products don't get, and a lot of that development was done on unpaid time).

 

[Vocenoctum]

I've always found it amusing that many gamers want 2005 quality books on 1985 printer costs. Sorry folks, but the world don't work that way. Go to Barnes & Noble and look at the prices of books outside the RPG section that don't have million copy print runs (per unit cost drops with # of copies made, but even WotC rarely cracks the 50,000 copy mark except for the core rules). You'll find they typically cost one and a half times to twice as much as game books of the same size.

For comparison, I've seen 600 page college textbooks run for $200 - $300 a pop without a single sketch in them - and that was 10 years ago. So, if anything, the RPG book market is undervalued, not overvalued.

Were there even 700 page RPG books in 1985?
Really though, Ptolus price is "inflated" by the format, so it's not a matter of printing dollars, so much as art and layout, which is fine since that's what the product is. As for comparison, like I mentioned, the two Iron Kingdom's guides are 400 pages and $40 each.

Three complaints which I don't think I've read yet, but which are about Ptolus:
But really, a 700 page book? Beyond the Mountains of Madness was a bear at 439 pages ($40, IIRC). Ptolus should come with it's own STAND.

Next: follow up support. Hard to judge how many units will move (though the preorder system will give Monte Cook a head start.), so I wonder how it will affect follow up products/support? (given, at 700 pages, the thing will probably be pretty extensive, and few will live long enough to read it all...)

And lastly, I can understand a cancelation fee, but this early on? (assuming I read the other thread correctly) I could see after the new year, but charging $25 for canceling at this point seems a bit much. (Apologies if I've misunderstood the cancellation policy.)

 

[TwistedBishop]

I've always found it amusing that many gamers want 2005 quality books on 1985 printer costs. Sorry folks, but the world don't work that way.

So a $60 hardcover would be based on 1985 prices? I somehow doubt that in the past few years since 3E began printing costs have risen 300%.

A quality book can be had at $10 per 100 pages from any number of publishers in the industry. Are all these people supposed to be losing money?

 

[Vocenoctum]

The preorder certianly is an even better deal. But for what it is, the straight Ptolus package is certianly worth the price. Yeah, it is is frilly product, but 1) that's the part of the point and 2) those frills, in and of themselves, add a lot of functionality to the product.

Some do (index/cross reference), some (cover, higher art) are just frills. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

The IK books are a couple of the best cases of how much content you get for your money. They are just that, best case, and not indicitave of the norm (keep in mind they also came out years late, which added a lot of development time most products don't get, and a lot of that development was done on unpaid time).

I used them, mainly because I was just looking at them. Lost power at work due to Katrina, so I've been home since Thursday afternoon. Besides lost wages, this will cost me $700 for a pair of Garands, plus I'll probably have spent $200 in RPG Dollars by the time I go back to work on Monday. So I was looking at Iron Kingdom's (before remembering that I didn't actually like Lock & Load or the first adventure very much) and Midnight2 ($50, didn't see page count, then remembered I've never used Midnight1)...