Generation: rolling vs. point buy

[Telas]

And there is the 'cookie cutter' array I was talking about. 95% of the people I know would assign their attributes that way for a paladin no matter what their concept was as that is the most efficient way to do it for the mechanics of the game. The variances I see are in how the personalities are potrayed in the course of the campaign not in how the attributes are distributed.

Outside the RPGA (and let's not include them in munchkin discussions, please), I don't know anyone who does point-buy at less than 28. Most are 32 point systems.

Even striving for maximum effectiveness, I can find multiple ways of building a PC with a decent point-buy.

Does anyone remember AD&D, when it was nearly impossible to roll up a Paladin, even with 4d6dl? That 17 Cha was a real PITA.

Telas

 

[Kylearan]

Well met!

Playing in Berandor's group, we use his card method as described in the linked thread from House Rules. Works pretty well for us, some high stats, makes good for heroic adventuring with a slim chance of survival. ;-)

Kylearan

 

[Bodkin]

When I DM, I used the same method as Ogre-Mage; roll normally, if the stats are undesirable then the player may use a 32 point buy. Most of the people I game with just role until they get the stats they want. That's my experience, anyway.

 

[Dracomeander]

Does anyone remember AD&D, when it was nearly impossible to roll up a Paladin, even with 4d6dl? That 17 Cha was a real PITA.

I started with Chainmail and OD&D. I played many campaigns using the ironman 3d6 in order take what you get for attributes. Those were some of the funnest games ever.

But 3.x D&D is supposed to be about expanding the options for characters. However, the standard point buy recommended in the book only gives you options at character creation for what pidgeonhole you want your character to fill. Once that choice is made, the options for the character to develope within the course of the game are severely limited.

Granted the options open up when you factor in higher point buy totals. But the newbie coming into the game only has the book for a guideline, unless he's lucky enough to be joining an existing group that has already discovered some of the pitfalls and when to alter what the book says.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I am curious how you assigned your scores with the 25 point buy.

I chose: str15 dex10 con13 int8 wis12 cha14; improve str & con, and then wis, finally cha. This emphasizes melee combat in heavy armour at the expense of slower spells and small # of skills .

But the other arrays I considered were (in order of str, dex, con, int, wis, cha):

12, 15, 8, 10, 13, 14, for my mounted archer
16, 8, 14, 8, 12, 13, for my heavy bruiser
14, 12, 10, 10, 13, 14, for the more balanced swordsman

It is a fair accusation that 25pt buy can't give you the gifted individual that greatly excels across the board, that requires much greater point buy or a generous rolling method (not 4d6d). However in the world presented to us our characters are thriving, I'm sure that would not be the case if our DM did not apply the same standards for their NPC's.

(Btw, as an aside I think fighting/interacting with NPC's that possess a negative modifier really highlights the importance of having even a +0/+1 modifier in an ability. In the past there has been a perception, I think, of a +1 modifier being weak but 25pt buy recalibrates the mindset to see it as a small but definitely welcome bonus.)

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Sample 25 PB Paladin

S14 D10 C13 I10 W12 C14

Bye
Thanee

And there is the 'cookie cutter' array I was talking about. 95% of the people I know would assign their attributes that way for a paladin no matter what their concept was as that is the most efficient way to do it for the mechanics of the game. The variances I see are in how the personalities are potrayed in the course of the campaign not in how the attributes are distributed.

I must be the other 5%. If I were making a 25 point buy paladin, I'd either go:
S 14, D10 C14 I10 W11 Ch14
or
S 14 D13 C14 I8 W8 CH 15
The latter arrangement obviously will never get spells, but can multiclass to fighter, pious templar, exotic weapon master, and divine crusader to remedy that lack.

However, it's worth pointing out that the "cookie cutter" array is not as much a function of point buy as it is of (1) the restrictive nature of 25 point buy and (2) the restrictive nature of the paladin class which probably has less variance between effective builds than any other class. Paladin's abilities are all set in stone and taking full advantage of them leads to paladin builds being very similar. It's possible to make many different kinds of archers, and a few different kinds of monks, but paladins tend to look more similar to each other than other classes.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Tell me if I'm wrong but wasn't the playtested paladin built with str14 dex8 con12 int10 wis13 & cha15? Pump wis at 4th and cha thereafter. Gloves, bracers and belts were prioritized through the mid-levels.

This is the iconic presented to us so I've just assumed that the paladin's power/party contribution was based on this build?

 

[ThirdWizard]

I tried 4d6dl in my most recent campaign. One character's stats were significantly higher than the others' and one person's stats were just above worthless. We quickly scrapped that whole idea, I gave them 28 points, and we re-worked the characters.

Point buy for us, and I doubt we'll try rolling ever again unless its a one shot for throw-away characters or something like that.

 

[Telas]

So, if you were rolling 4d6 for a character, what would you get?

To be sure, let's do this four times (archetypal party size). Four sets of numbers, in no particular order, using 4d6 drop lowest. I'm using the online roller at:
http://www.openroleplaying.org/tools/dieroller/index.cgi

10, 12, 8, 14, 12, 14 - 22 points
9, 16, 14, 11, 15, 14 - 34 points
16, 13, 17, 15, 16, 11 - 49 points
15, 13, 11, 12, 14, 15 - 34 points

Average point cost of 34.75, if we were to buy these stats.

So, who gets the 49 point guy? Those are Paladin stats, for sure. Better question: who gets to try to build a Monk out of the 22 pointer?

Now, I did this partly to see if I could get a decent Paladin out of it (and I did, but it took 2-3 tries), but the average point cost really got my attention. Four isn't a large enough sample size, but if that's indicative of 4d6dl, then comparing it to a 25 point character is apples-to-oranges in my book.

Telas

 

[Thanee]

I tried 4d6dl in my most recent campaign. One character's stats were significantly higher than the others' and one person's stats were just above worthless. We quickly scrapped that whole idea, I gave them 28 points, and we re-worked the characters.

Point buy for us, and I doubt we'll try rolling ever again unless its a one shot for throw-away characters or something like that.

If you want some more random elements, but not those huge gaps 4d6dl often gives, check out the link to the House Rule post in my post on the first page. I've listed some methods, which should probably work just fine.

Bye
Thanee