Get pedantic on Feeblemind

[Pielorinho]

Not unless they somehow tried to raise Int (or Cha) above 1.

Why is that?
Daniel

 

[sirwmholder]

"Wizard's First Rule: People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." ~ Terry Goodkind

Thank you for your time,
Wm. Holder

 

[glass]

Why is that?

Because feeblemnind lowers Int and Cha to 1, it doesn't raise them. It doesn't care if they are already 0, 1, or -, as long as they are not 2+.


glass.

 

[Artoomis]

...This is already covered in the FAQ.

A feeblemind spells reduces the subject’s Intelligence and Charisma scores to 1 (not just Intelligence). Of course, if the subject already has a score of 0, feeblemind doesn’t increase the score. The subject’s Intelligence and Charisma become 1 (or stay at 0) regardless of any enhancements or other increases to those scores.

A feeblemind effect remains until the subject receives a heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell. The subject cannot benefit from any effect that increases Intelligence or Charisma until the feeblemind effect is removed.

What a bizarre ruling. That's treating Feeblemind as it if created a permanent effect rather than an instaneous one. How odd.

It even says you cannot increase the scores to 1 if they are at 0. Bizarre.

I think someone was asleep at the switch to allow this ruling to go forward into the FAQ.

 

[Pielorinho]

Because feeblemnind lowers Int and Cha to 1, it doesn't raise them. It doesn't care if they are already 0, 1, or -, as long as they are not 2+.

Lowers them to 1 or below, or just lowers them to 1? As I read it, it lowers them exactly to 1, and then you remain in that state until....

If your score goes below 1, you're not remaining in that state.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

What a bizarre ruling. That's treating Feeblemind as it if created a permanent effect rather than an instaneous one. How odd.

Again, look at imprisonment. I don't think "instantaneous" means what you're suggesting it means.

Daniel

 

[Artoomis]

Again, look at imprisonment. I don't think "instantaneous" means what you're suggesting it means.

Daniel

I have. Imprisonment leaves you isolated in a state suspended animation.

Feeblemind leaves you with a 1 int and Cha. The FAQ ruling treats it like a permanent spell that KEEPS you at a 1 Int and Cha.

It's bizarre.

With this treatment of Feeblemind, it would be better described as a permanent spell upon which Dispel Magic has no effect.

The way the FAQ has it, the "state" must be magical and therefore one should consider whether Dispel Magic, M;s Disjunction or even an Antimagic Field (or a magic dead zone for certain worlds) should have eny effect.

It just keep getting worse.

All they needed to do was state that you Int and Cha are reduced to "1." Certain things may remove that condition, and most of them are listed in the "until" clause. Anythinf that raises Int and Cha in any way can raise it up from the reduced state of "1."

That the simplest way to veiw this.

 

[Pielorinho]

I have. Imprisonment leaves you isolated in a state suspended animation.

Feeblemind leaves you with a 1 int and Cha. The FAQ ruling treats it like a permanent spell that KEEPS you at a 1 Int and Cha.

It's bizarre.

With this treatment of Feeblemind, it would be better described as a permanent spell upon which Dispel Magic has no effect.

Doesn't Imprisonment have an ongoing magical effect as well, though? I don't think Instantaneous effects dissipate with no magic left over, necessarily.

Daniel

 

[Cedric]

What a bizarre ruling. That's treating Feeblemind as it if created a permanent effect rather than an instaneous one. How odd.

The effect of feeblemind is permanent. The spell energy that creates the effect is instantaneous. This is true of most instantaneous spells.

Instantaneous

The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

Spell energy comes and goes...consequences long-lasting (in this case, permanent until one of 4 spells is used).

Permanent

The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic.

The effect is permanent ONLY because the spell energy remains and sustains the effect.

If I created an "instantaneous" 5th level spell transmutation that hacked your left pinky finger off...it's GONE! There is no residual magic (in this case) that is keeping your pinky finger missing, it's just cut off, hacked off, sliced off, gone...just as if I'd used a meat cleaver, only I used a spell.

Break Enchantment should not be able to grow back your left pinky finger. Because nothing in the text for Break Enchantment indicates that it can grow back severed body parts.

Now...if I created a "permanent" 5th level transmutation that made your left pinky finger magically disappear...you could get rid of that transmutation with Break Enchantment and your finger would suddenly reappear.

Now, before you say it, I realize that break enchantment says that it can defeat 5th level instantaneous transmutations...but regardless. If I used the instantaneous version of the finger hacking spell, it won't work. Your left pinky finger isn't magically suppressed, it's laying on the table in front of, having just been cut off (by my spell). It's as cut off as if I used my belt knife on it.

Until you cast a spell that restores missing limbs or fingers, your finger isn't growing back. Break Enchantment won't make your finger grow back.

 

[Artoomis]

Doesn't Imprisonment have an ongoing magical effect as well, though? I don't think Instantaneous effects dissipate with no magic left over, necessarily.

Daniel

"The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting. "

Sure. Note that all the spell energy is gone, by defintion.

The long-lasting consequences could have a magical nature, sure. In this case they do not appear to be magical.

If they are, then other solutions may exist.

Indeed, in the case of Imprisonment other solutions may exist, though they would be nearly impossible to implement.

"When you cast imprisonment and touch a creature, it is entombed in a state of suspended animation (see the temporal stasis spell) in a small sphere far beneath the surface of the earth. The subject remains there unless a freedom spell is cast at the locale where the imprisonment took place. Magical search by a crystal ball, a locate object spell, or some other similar divination does not reveal the fact that a creature is imprisoned, but discern location does. A wish or miracle spell will not free the recipient, but will reveal where it is entombed."

Nothing prevents you from using Discern Location and then some mundane means of recovering the body and using Dispel Magic to remove the suspended animation (per the temporal stasis spell).

Actually Imprisonment is kind of odd for an instaneous spell because it leaves you with a "permanent" effect.