Getting rid of clerics in my homebrew.

shadow,

If, for game balance reasons, you really want to be able to include a class that has access to cleric spells, I believe that finding or rewriting an alternative class would work best. I'm sure there are plenty of people who have cleric variants, and many more who could whip something up for you if you are very clear about the place that the sacred has in your game world.

From what you told me, you do want mystics, priests, and holy men in your game. Since you have a monothetistic world, how about modeling your clerics on the luminaries of the Abrahamic faiths? Moses is a great example since you can almost see him "leveling up" (as it were) throughout the story of Exodus.

Off the top of my head, here are some things you could do to make the cleric class more reflect the role of religion in your game.

1. Require a code of conduct. This goes beyond simple alignment and instead focuses on the day-to-day choices that a cleric in your world makes. I would not even mention alignment in the cleric's code of conduct. Instead, I'd make it so that the things a cleric is required and forbidden to do are based on the deity's agenda.

2. Use something other than spells as class abilities. The paladin and the bard both have abilities that can work in this regard. You can tweak them to make them scale a bit better throughout the levels. Like the rogue, you can even have a list of general cleric abilities that players can choose as they level up. I think a great idea would be to give clerics the ability to do things with Perform (Oratory) and Knowledge (Religion) that other classes simply can't do.

3. Get the same HD, armor and weapon proficiencies, and save bonuses as sorcerers and wizards do. In exchange, they could get appropriate bonus feats and more class skills and skill points.

4. You had the right of it when you said "miracles" instead of "spells." To give clerics a proper respect for divine power, instead of X/day, have them be X/session. You can easily take a look at the spell progression chart to see how powerful a miracle is supposed to be for a given level. Alternatively, the cleric's player could make a faith check that's really a level check adjusted by the Wisdom modifier. You can keep make a table that gives a DC for each spell level. You could even give bonuses and penalties based upon how the cleric upheld the code of conduct as well as the spiritual practices (fasting, meditation, ritual sacrifice, whatever) they partook in during a certain amount of time. The bonus could range from +1 to +5 and depend upon how much the cleric was affected by what they're doing. For instance, a cleric who is fasting might get a +1 bonus if he chose not to eat his favorite dish while he was fasting. But a cleric who's starving could get a +5 bonus.

5. Miracles, when and if they happen, come only from the cleric's chosen domains. These reflect not to much the deity's portfolio as the cleric's role in living his or her faith. A cleric who sees himself as providing hope and succor to the weak is not the same as one who sees herself a defender of righteousness. Clerics could start off with one or two domains, but they should be able to gain more as they level up.

This is about all I can come up with for now. If you give me a few days, I should be able to have something more solid if you want.
 

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Nix the cleric, use reserve points (as in Unearthed Arcana or Iron Heroes) and use herbal remedies for diseases, poisons, ability dmage, etc.
 


shadow said:
3. Change the flavor of "divine magic" - Here the cleric class is seen as a different type of wizard. This, too, creates a lot of problems in trying to explain the setting. If clerics are just another type of wizard, why do they get a d8 hit die and get to wear armor when the "other wizards" only get a d4 hit die and no armor proficiency? (Not to mention the idea of cleric domains.)

If you change the flavor of divine magic (it's just another kind of magic), I'd scratch the cleric class in favor of the archivist (linked above) or the cloistered cleric variant from UA. Either class has more skills and less melee ability than the standard cleric.
 

shadow said:
Moreover, the cleric class forces the D&D game to have one particular type of cosmology - a polytheistic loose pantheon where the gods are extremely active in mortal affairs.

Slight aside - the above is very much not true. The PHB itself says that you can do clerics without gods entirely, and there are many flavor-variants that don't alter the class mechanics much or at all that can handle other cosmologies. I've seen clerics without gods. Monotheistic clerics, clerics with gods that are silent.

In my own game, the gods are most certainly not active in mortal affairs. They are so quiet, there is an open question as to whether they exist at all.

Which is not to say you can't do away with clerics, but that you may not have to if you find the cosmology aspect is the big sticking point. That one can be handled.
 


DUDE! I DID THE SAME THING!

My Hyboria/Conan D&D game has all but eliminated clerics. I think they're the scourge of classes. Here's why:
* Clerics are not priests and they're not paladins. MAKE UP YOUR MIND ALREADY!
* They're the most powerful class in the game when it comes to survivability
* I'm tired of the "hey, everything's based on religion" type of mentality that pervades D&D
* I think the whole concept of magic being doled out by the gods for BILLIONS of clerics universe-wide is absolutely stupid. Magic is magic.
* I think the excuse of "well, he's a REAL priest because HIS GOD gives him his spells is stupid too." Sorry for the use of the word "Stupid" so much, but I don't have my thesarus available to make it sound more euphamisitc so as not to upset fanboys of clerics (no offense fanboys..but I gotta poke fun at you too ;)
* I don't like their ability to cast spells in heavy armor. The same is true of psionics. Magic should be magic.

Here's how I didn't have to get rid of clerics, but instead made them obsolete:

1. Since sorcerer's can create their spells from any list, I made it clear to players that sorcerers can take spells from ANY list (including divine, bard, paladin, domain, etc.). "SOrcerers choose their spells 'primarily' from the wizard/sorcerer list." THe same is true for shugenja and I added wizards to the list too.

2. I created scrolls of Turn Undead.

3. Potions and scrolls of CLW are available at everyone's local pharmacy.

4. I USED to say that all spells were affected by armor (including divine), but it was more hassle than it was worth in the house rulebook. That was the STRONGEST thing to knock clerics down..and it actually worked, but I'm trying to thin down my house rulebook instead of make it like a robert jordan novel.

BOOM! Clerics are now obsolete and MAGIC IS MAGIC. I also solved a second problem: too much gold in teh part is a thing of the past because now players PURCHASE MORE CLW POTIONS, ETC.

Try it, you'll like it and your players are going to start leaning different directions.


..
 

I had a similar idea for a Homebrew a while back. I was going to eliminate the Cleric class
and allow the Cure, Restore and Resurrect spells to be cast by Wiz/Sorc. I was going to rely on the Druid and Shaman(Kingdoms of Kalamar) classes to fill the void of the Cleric.

I also played around with the idea of having a true Alchemist class. They would be able to collect their supplies while the group camped and brew a certain amount of potions while they rested. This would have covered the "buff" spells as well as some of the cures.

Bastion press has a nice PDF about alchemy called Alchemy and Herbalists if you are interested.

Adamant Entertainment has a PDF called 40 Alchemical Items.

Tangent Games has a PDF called Mineral Alchemy.

I think there are a couple of others but these are the ones I was using the most.

Later,

Arrel
 

I ditched clerics in a campaign and it worked just fine. The Gods in the PHB were still worshipped, but they were distant figures and did not influence the world with clerical magic.
 

Taking a note from Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth, why not try somehting like the following?

  • Combine the Clerics and the Sorcerer/Wizards Spelllist together, and rid yourself of any extra spells that you don't like.
  • Give them d6 HD.
  • Give them bonus feats like a wizard, all oh which are open (so no scribe scroll @ first - you can choose them all). Have Turn undead be one of those feats as well.
  • If you don't like bonus feats, consider giving them the ability to cast spells in Light Armour only.
  • Prolly have spellcasting set up like a wizards, with a spell/prayer book and the need to research spells, etc.
  • Combine the 3 classes skill list and take out any skills you don't feel are appropriate.
voila! More or less, you have a decent base class :)
 

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