D&D 5E (2014) Giving the arcane gish an identity.

[UngainlyTitan]

AH! Love it!

I'm not sure 'Bear' is a martial art That's not what we mean when we say 'bear with me'

Of course Bear is a martial art just ask Baloo.

 

[FrogReaver]

Due to the way 5e has set out spellcasting progression, a '2/3' caster doesn't actually work (I tried to work it out for a homebrew class, and quickly realised that the maths doesn't line up). A full caster gains a spellcasting level every level. A half caster gains it every 2 levels. And a 1/3 caster gains it every 3 levels.

1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 17th, 19th, 20th.

that feels pretty good to me for a 2/3 caster progression.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I feel like the inclusion of the Eldritch Knight (fighter) and Blade Singer (wizard) have really narrowed the design space (thematically and mechanically) for a generic arcane gish class. If those two subclasses weren’t a thing, it’d be an easier nut to crack.

Edit: the Paladin’s spell slot powered smite also takes away a potential niche for the arcane gish.

Yep. That's why my Swordmage is a scholarly weapon master with a bent toward the esoteric/hermetic.

Another way to go would be to make them part alchemist rather than part wizard.

I personally made it a pseudo-monk more than pseudo-paladin, as well. I gave them wizard-style ritual casting, the ability to use their Aether (ki) to cast spells, and a small suite of esoteric techniques that push them past what the existing spells in the game do, with things like "throw your weapon as an action, and it explodes, doing lesser damage to all creatures within 10ft of the target, and then reforms in your hand." and "Target a creature within 60ft of you that you can see, you throw your weapon and it, and you, turn into a bolt of lightning going from your starting space to the target. The target, and all creatures in a direct line between you and the target, must save vs decent damage, and you reappear in the nearest unoccupied space within 5ft of the target."

There's also an Aegis that boosts AC and gives some situational damage mitigation, and aether points and esoteric techniques, which include spells, and an aether weapon that gain returning and either a thrown range or increased range, allowing for melee, thrown, and archer, characters. The AC boost uses Int in place of Dex, allowing you to make a strength great weapon character without problems.

 

[cbwjm]

I'm going back through the work I've done on a fighter/mage class. I've got a number of subclasses pulled from past editions or popular media, some are names only which means now I have no idea what I was going to do with it.

• Abjurant Champion. Creates an aegis, a shield of energy
• Umbriri. A shadowy assassin
• Seer. From my notes this seems the Jedi "he sees things before they happen" subclass
• Bard. I guess I figured I'd see how the bard fit into the class
• Elemental Guardian. Focused on harnessing the elements
• Mesmer. Name stolen from Guild Wars 2, uses illusions in combat
• Death Knight. Stolen from wow. Uses frost and necromantic magic. Has an undead minion.
• Also the arcane archer and bladesinger and something that I called the Arcane Order with the note "Uses magic and scrolls" so no idea where I was going with that since all of them use magic and scrolls. Maybe a blade of the arcane order is just better at it.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I think the "problem" with Gish characters is that everyone expects different things from them, so making a definitive class that fits all of that definitions and expectations is near impossible. I particularly like different gishes being subclasses, that explore how different classes interwine magic and pointy metal thingys

That's my own take on this thread: I don't think you can make a single martial/arcane hybrid class that does it all - it would need to be extremely broad, encompass all available warrior styles and all non-divine magical styles, and have at least one way to blend them... there wouldn't be a core to the class beyond hit dice. You could cover a lot with a good swordmage, but they're already thin on story (and the traditional archetypes were all race-focused), and that would leave a lot of options off the table.

The better answer is an option for combining spell slots with martial attacks that anyone can pick up pretty quickly.

Consider the Sorcadin: it works pretty well as a gish concept because Divine Smite lets you spend spell slots to add to melee damage, does so efficiently, and scales pretty well. At pal2/sor1 you feel gish-y, and you can then progress in either class as much as you like depending on how you want to play the character. Plus sorcerers have the least rp baggage. But Divine Smite works well with bards and warlocks too, so you don't see a gap in Charisma half-casters. That's already out there.

The int classes don't have that. If Eldritch Knights got a good version of Spellstrike (the Pathfinder Magus feature) this thread wouldn't be necessary. Maybe make a feat? They'd blend well with wizards or artificers, and since there's a lot of types of wizards you'd have a lot of potential options without a lot of work.

Which isn't to say there isn't room for more arcane half-casters (I really like the Janissary idea above) but they can't, in a single class, give everyone (or nearly everyone) what they want, and probably shouldn't try.

(Wis half-casters feel redundant because clerics and druids can cover the space well enough as-is.)

 

[Tinker-TDC]

(Wis half-casters feel redundant because clerics and druids can cover the space well enough as-is.)

I mean, Rangers are still available. Not the magic-y-est of half casters but definitely a Wisdom caster.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

A feat which allowed you to pick up the relevant spells would be nice, and work as a patch. It would still only be giving one spell though. When you want your entire playstyle built around spells like that, it's not very satisfying.

Also you can't even pick up spells like that. There is no magic initiate paladin or ranger (both of which would be useless to int classes anyway). And fey/shadow touched have school restrictions which also prevent those spells being picked.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I mean, Rangers are still available. Not the magic-y-est of half casters but definitely a Wisdom caster.

rangers have an identity crisis.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

rangers have an identity crisis.

Ironically they have the exact same issues a potential swordmage class does. Though at least they have managed to keep a consistent name.

Every single person wants rangers to be something different. No one can agree on what they should do or how they should do it. I even see many people argue that it should be foldered into a fighter and rogue subclass.

Personally I think that the ranger has too much identity to be a subclass. I like the primal half caster angle they took with it, as it really gives it its own thing which no other class does.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Ironically they have the exact same issues a potential swordmage class does. Though at least they have managed to keep a consistent name.

Every single person wants rangers to be something different. No one can agree on what they should do or how they should do it. I even see many people argue that it should be foldered into a fighter and rogue subclass.

Personally I think that the ranger has too much identity to be a subclass. I like the primal half caster angle they took with it, as it really gives it its own thing which no other class does.

ranger needs to be split into the rogue-ish half caster and two martial subclasses for fighter and rogue receptively so no one is angry and everyone gets something they like.

have we any idea on how the arcane gish gets it's magic as that should settle the basic story easily?