D&D 5E Giving the arcane gish an identity.

[ECMO3]

a paladin is a divine caster plus it is all melee much like ranger is mostly range we want the in-between.

You can build a ranged Paladin pretty easy; dump strength and boost dex. Paladin gets all the armors so he can go medium or even light armor if he wants to fit the ranged theme.

Frankly there is no more difficulty building a Paladin than any other ranged character. The spells mentioned in the thread I replied to are all (or at least mostly) on the Paladin list and I don't think 5E makes a distinction between Arcane casting and divine casting.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

You can build a ranged Paladin pretty easy; dump strength and boost dex. Paladin gets all the armors so he can go medium or even light armor if he wants to fit the ranged theme.

Frankly there is no more difficulty building a Paladin than any other ranged character. The spells mentioned in the thread I replied to are all (or at least mostly) on the Paladin list and I don't think 5E makes a distinction between Arcane casting and divine casting.

Most Smite spells don't work for ranged weapons, and Divine Smite doesn't work, either.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I think once a day at 11th level or higher would be ok provided the specific spell to be used was selected and expended ahead of time (at the end of a long rest or as its own independaet action out of combat).

What we are talking about is essentially the equivalent of a contingency spell without using a spell slot, but with one discharge option (the attack). Since a full caster can't do that until 11th level and can never use more than one 6th level slot per LR, this class should also not be available before 11th level and should never be available more than once per long rest.

So: a 6th level spell?
Or do you think a 7th level spell since you feel additional restrictions are necessary?

Even at 11th level this is still very powerful for a half caster IMO.

How is whether a character is a full, caster, half-caster, or martial relevant to the power of one of their abilities at a specific level?

If they are a half-caster and if they stay within the Paladin damage limits per spell slot yes, but I would also suggest they have no cantrips like most other half-casters and nerf the other ribbon abilities since their higher-level feature is so good.

So you think that a class with no extra attack or boosts to cantrips, (so spells are their primary capability) but only access to spells as a half-caster is viable as a combat-focused class?

 

[ECMO3]

So: a 6th level spell?
Or do you think a 7th level spell since you feel additional restrictions are necessary?

Contingency is a 6th level spell. I am not sure what you are asking.

How is whether a character is a full, caster, half-caster, or martial relevant to the power of one of their abilities at a specific level?

Because a fuill caster has access to higher-level spells which by its nature makes abilities that allow you to cast a spell more powerful. Being a half caster limits the power of the spells they have at their disposal to do this with.

So you think that a class with no extra attack or boosts to cantrips, (so spells are their primary capability) but only access to spells as a half-caster is viable as a combat-focused class?

If it has the ability to both attack and unleash a full leveled spell every turn? Yes this would not only be viable, it would be the most powerful class in the game.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Contingency is a 6th level spell. I am not sure what you are asking.

I am asking what level a spell that deals 8d6 fire damage in a 20ft radius, reflex save for half, and an additional d8+5 physical damage to a single target in the area would be.
It is looking like you would regard such a spell as 6th level, but since you were requiring additional restrictions, I was asking if you thought it should be 7th level instead.

This is not a "how would you replicate this ability using existing abilities" discussion. It is a "how would you rate this new ability" discussion.

Because a fuill caster has access to higher-level spells which by its nature makes abilities that allow you to cast a spell more powerful. Being a half caster limits the power of the spells they have at their disposal to do this with.

Surely that only applies if the half-caster has other abilities that bring their performance up in other ways?
Surely martials, half-casters and full-casters should be capable of the same level of power overall?

If it has the ability to both attack and unleash a full leveled spell every turn? Yes this would not only be viable, it would be the most powerful class in the game.

You're going to have to back that claim up I think.
You are suggesting that casting a Shatter spell alongside a single attack would be more powerful than casting Fireball?

 

[ECMO3]

I am asking what level a spell that deals 8d6 fire damage in a 20ft radius, reflex save for half, and an additional d8+5 physical damage to a single target in the area would be.

I would say that is a 5th-level spell. So on a full caster as a stand alone spell, level 9.

If you compare this to other spells:
a 5th level lightning bolt would do about this much to everyone it its area, which is typically smaller than a fireball.
a 5th level fireball would do abou tthis much to everyone in a 20' radius
a 5th level flame strike would do the same as the base damage but to fewer enemies and without getting one for the extra 9.5.
a 5ht level virtiolic sphere would do slightly more to everyone in its area over 2 turns assuming no saves.
a 5ht level cloudkill does substantially less damage per turn but over several turns.
a 5th-level ice storm does substantially less damage.

So I would say that is a 5th-level spell, but I could see how you could argue for 4th level.

But it is important to note, this is a straight up spell attack action where the 1d8+5 is part of the specific spell being cast, not something that is part of something else which is tacked on and combined with any spell. Finally 1d8+5 extra damage is fundamentally different than an extra attack as that can be for a lot more damage and have numerous other riders or effects on it.

This is not a "how would you replicate this ability using existing abilities" discussion. It is a "how would you rate this new ability" discussion.

If you are talking about the ability to combine an attack with a leveled spell I would rate it extremely high, equivalent to a 6th level spell.

Surely that only applies if the half-caster has other abilities that bring their performance up in other ways?

They do though. Martial weapons and heavy armor being the two most obvious ways.

Surely martials, half-casters and full-casters should be capable of the same level of power overall?

I do not think all the classes are the exact same power level in combat. If you include all three pillars sure I would agree with this concept but it would be hard to objectively measure.

You're going to have to back that claim up I think.
You are suggesting that casting a Shatter spell alongside a single attack would be more powerful than casting Fireball?

The game designers have stated that action economy should not be altered and this would disrupt the balance of the game. In the example we are talking about, the class would be the only character in the game that can use both the attack action and the cast a spell action with a leveled spell in the same turn repeatedly. The only other class/subclass that can do this at all (Fighter/EK) can only do it twice per short rest at 17th level (once per SR before this) and is limited to casting one 4th level spell a day at 20th level. Further those who say we need this new Gish are on record saying the EK is not enough for them. You are literally taking the biggest ability that distinguishes the fighter class and replacing it with something that is far, for more powerful and can be used far more often.

Shatter is a strawman, because you aren't limiting this to shatter. Even so, the classes that do allow casting action spells and attacking limit it cantrips, even at 20th level. Casting shatter with an attack is undeniably more powerful than just making an attack or than using bladesinger extra attack, which are what it should be compared to. Similarly war magic only allows an attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip. It does not allow it after a leveled spell. This would by any measure be more powerful than those class features and those classes never get the ability to do what you are talking about, even with a low-level spell like shatter at 20th level.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I would say that is a 5th-level spell. So on a full caster as a stand alone spell, level 9.

If you compare this to other spells:
a 5th level lightning bolt would do about this much to everyone it its area, which is typically smaller than a fireball.
a 5th level fireball would do abou tthis much to everyone in a 20' radius
a 5th level flame strike would do the same as the base damage but to fewer enemies and without getting one for the extra 9.5.
a 5ht level virtiolic sphere would do slightly more to everyone in its area over 2 turns assuming no saves.
a 5ht level cloudkill does substantially less damage per turn but over several turns.
a 5th-level ice storm does substantially less damage.

So I would say that is a 5th-level spell, but I could see how you could argue for 4th level.

OK. So you feel that the ability to do this a couple of times a day would be suitable for a 7th-level full-caster.
What level do you think would be suitable for a class ability with the same effects as the spell would be for a class that is not a full caster to be able to do twice per day?

But it is important to note, this is a straight up spell attack action where the 1d8+5 is part of the specific spell being cast, not something that is part of something else which is tacked on and combined with any spell. Finally 1d8+5 extra damage is fundamentally different than an extra attack as that can be for a lot more damage and have numerous other riders or effects on it.

I'm using the example with fireball to demonstrate that the ability is not excessive, because that is the one you picked out.
Regarding the damage, d8+5 seemed reasonable at that level, particularly since you regard AC so highly. We can say that they drop the shield and deal 2d6+5 if you prefer?
What "other riders or effects" are you worried about?

If you are talking about the ability to combine an attack with a leveled spell I would rate it extremely high, equivalent to a 6th level spell.

OK. Even when applied to a 1st level spell like Chromatic Orb you regard the resulting damage as equivalent to a 6th level spell?
That is actually quite handy because Disintegrate is a also a single-target spell, so we can compare the effects directly.
Does that seem fair?

They do though. Martial weapons and heavy armor being the two most obvious ways.

Interesting.
Aren't martial weapons generally equivalent to about +1 damage, and Heavy armour only 1 or two points of AC?
You feel that those differences balance out the difference between full spell progression and only half progression?

Personally I would have gone for Extra Attack, but I'm extremely interested in why you believe that it is Martial Weapons and Heavy armour that make the difference.

I do not think all the classes are the exact same power level in combat. If you include all three pillars sure I would agree with this concept but it would be hard to objectively measure.

OK. If you want to stick to combat performance, that is fine. - This is a combat ability after all.
Do you believe that full caster classes should be more powerful in combat than half-casters and martials? By roughly how much?

The game designers have stated that action economy should not be altered and this would disrupt the balance of the game. In the example we are talking about, the class would be the only character in the game that can use both the attack action and the cast a spell action with a leveled spell in the same turn repeatedly. The only other class/subclass that can do this at all (Fighter/EK) can only do it twice per short rest at 17th level (once per SR before this) and is limited to casting one 4th level spell a day at 20th level. Further those who say we need this new Gish are on record saying the EK is not enough for them. You are literally taking the biggest ability that distinguishes the fighter class and replacing it with something that is far, for more powerful and can be used far more often.

Don't EKs get Extra Attack, Heavy Armour, Fighting style etc?

Shatter is a strawman, because you aren't limiting this to shatter.

Shatter is the closest 2nd level spell to Fireball that came to mind: both being ranged circular AoE spells.

strawman

If you are unaware of the implications of the word that you just used, could you look it up please?
If you are fully aware of the implications, and you did actually intend it as an accusation that I am being dishonest, then could you kindly explain yourself?

Even so, the classes that do allow casting action spells and attacking limit it cantrips, even at 20th level. Casting shatter with an attack is undeniably more powerful than just making an attack or than using bladesinger extra attack, which are what it should be compared to.

Hence the reason for the comparison: At the point at which this subclass would be dealing AoE damage by swinging as part of casting Shatter, the Bladesinger would be dealing AoE with Fireball.

Similarly war magic only allows an attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip. It does not allow it after a leveled spell. This would by any measure be more powerful than those class features and those classes never get the ability to do what you are talking about, even with a low-level spell like shatter at 20th level.

OK. In terms of class performance in combat: why?

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

well, what are the basic archetypes for the subclasses both mechanically and thematically then we work backwards?

That's what I was starting the conversation with the post here

Are you sure this is the thread you meant to post?
If so, what page?

LOL, I'm so sorry! No, not only was that not the thread I meant to post, but I then went MIA on top of it !

Ahem, I'll try again. The post I mean to point to was this one:

However, after that, Cap'n Kobold posted this excellent starter here. I think we could surely start with that and iterate on it to get to something awesome.

 

[ph0rk]

But look at the actual discussion of what people want out of the stabnerd and you'll see that it's more about the style than DPS. The EK is a fighter who also casts spells. The stabnerd blends spellwork with combat. Blend not hybrid.

In the MMO-like usage of the word hybrid, though, a stabnerd must be a hybrid:

They cannot be as good at magic as a full caster, and they cannot be as good at stabbing as a full martial (whatever that might be, but lets just consider fighters and rogues). They may have some elements of each (as, after all, the easiest design method is to give them some spellcasting and a few other ribbon features).

Three attacks is probably out of the question unless the third comes around level 15 or so; but they should also have some sort of magical attack pattern boost around level 11/12.

Subbing out attacks for a cantrip is already an occupied space, unfortunately, so what is left? Adding some elemental damage to an attack or even changing that attack (or all attacks) to a damage type?

The way is to give them a handful of rock features that are magically martial enough to make them feel unique compared to a fighter/wizard, and that they progress well enough at fighting and casting during levels 1-10 that they feel better to play than trying to make a fighter/wizard does in 5e.

The biggest problem is that obvious design features are already spoken for - smiting with spell slots would fit, subbing attacks for cantrips (especially SCAGtrips) would fit, but those were taken.

 

[ECMO3]

OK. So you feel that the ability to do this a couple of times a day would be suitable for a 7th-level full-caster.
What level do you think would be suitable for a class ability with the same effects as the spell would be for a class that is not a full caster to be able to do twice per day?

I said I would make it a 5th-level spell. A full caster would have to be 9th level to cast a 5th-level spell two times a day. Further as I have alluded to earlier, a full caster would not have things like heavy armor or martial weapons and it would be a specific spell, it would count against spells known and would not be an extra 9.5 damage to any spell he wanted to cast.

For example, this caster would have in his spellbook a custom spell called "Fireball with enhanced damage to one creature" that spell would be a 5th level spell, it would count against his spells known. He would also have to know a 3rd-level fireball if he wanted to be able to cast a normal fireball. If he wanted an enhanced lighting bolt he would need to know another 5th-level spell known to do it with lightning bolt. This balances the ability by taking away the versatility and tying it to the specific spell in the same manner as the spells you are comparing it against. Arbitrarily adding damage is fundamentally different than adding damage to a specific spell.

I'm using the example with fireball to demonstrate that the ability is not excessive, because that is the one you picked out.
Regarding the damage, d8+5 seemed reasonable at that level, particularly since you regard AC so highly. We can say that they drop the shield and deal 2d6+5 if you prefer?
What "other riders or effects" are you worried about?

An extra 9.5 damage on a fireball is a full 2 levels higher in casting and it is not something that can be combined with another spell.

Mostly I am worried about breaking action economy regularly - allowing two actions on one turn repeatedly.

OK. Even when applied to a 1st level spell like Chromatic Orb you regard the resulting damage as equivalent to a 6th level spell?
That is actually quite handy because Disintegrate is a also a single-target spell, so we can compare the effects directly.
Does that seem fair?

When applied to chromatic orb it outdamages a paladins smite cast with the same slot by a full 33% and when you consider all the variations for different spells it adds far more variety to the effects and delivery. That is OP by quite a bit.

Even magic missile which is a low-damage spell, still does more damage than a 1st level smite does, while doing the best damage type in the game and letting you split it unerringly among up to 3 creatures.

So yes, casting chromatic orb using a 1st-leve spell slot for this is VERY overpowered. If you upped the slot and made it be cast 2 levels higher (use a 3rd-level slot to cast it as a first level spell) it would not be so bad in terms of damage disparity. I still think it would be very powerful because of the sheer variety but would not be op. This would mean with a half-caster you could not do it at all until 9th-level and not be able to do it with a 3rd level spell until 17th-level.

Interesting.
Aren't martial weapons generally equivalent to about +1 damage, and Heavy armour only 1 or two points of AC? You feel that those differences balance out the difference between full spell progression and only half progression?

They more than balance out the differences, because they do not make you choose between dex and strength

To start with your math is incorrect. In melee Martial weapons are worth 2 points of damage for a dex-based character (dagger 2.5 vs Rapier 4.5).

In strength-based melee weapons it is 2.5 damage without a reach advantage (staff vs greatsword) or 1 point with a reach advantage (staff vs glaive/halberd). Note I did not consider a Lance in this discussion because of the limited conditions it can be used effectively. This is a baseline, it gets worse when you consider armor as well.

Heavy Armor is 8 points of AC vs an unarmored character, or 10 with a shield. Further it is always on and does not cost any spell slots. Yes, you can build a high-dexterity character to be close to or even better than that with limited use abilities and spells but you have to invest a ton to do it, especially in dexterity itself, which reduces the variety of weapons you can use for damage and the effectiveness of your spells.

To put a number on this when we are talking about both of these at the same time - investing in dexterity to boost AC means you can't boost strength and can't use a staff effectively. So now you are not comparing a staff to a greatsword any more. Instead you have to go finnesse and now you are comparing a dagger to a greatsword. That is a whopping 4.5 points of damage difference. Boost strength to use a better weapon and your AC is no wear near what it is with plate. The guy with heavy armor gets both of these (high AC and high strength weapons)

Personally I would have gone for Extra Attack, but I'm extremely interested in why you believe that it is Martial Weapons and Heavy armour that make the difference.

See above discussion

OK. If you want to stick to combat performance, that is fine. - This is a combat ability after all.
Do you believe that full caster classes should be more powerful in combat than half-casters and martials? By roughly how much?

In theory no. But the Bladesinger is the most powerful subclass in the game by a substantial margin and we don't need an even better GISH that would be more powerful yet.

In short, they should be equal and that is why you whould not be able to swing a sword and cast an action spell on the same turn.

Don't EKs get Extra Attack, Heavy Armour, Fighting style etc?

Yes and they can not both cast a leveled spell and make an attack as the same action, even at 20th level. Finally they are a third-caster, not a half caster.

Shatter is the closest 2nd level spell to Fireball that came to mind: both being ranged circular AoE spells.

Yes, far more powerful than any other class can do. As I said above classes should be about equal.

Look at what other classes can do in terms of mixing sword and spell and base your build on that if you want it to be equal.

Hence the reason for the comparison: At the point at which this subclass would be dealing AoE damage by swinging as part of casting Shatter, the Bladesinger would be dealing AoE with Fireball.

The bladesinger is not taking 2 actions on his turn to do it, further at the level she gets fireball she can only even attack once per turn.

The bladesinger doesn't have heavy armor, and can use bladesong only 3 times per day at that level to get AC equivalent to this and out of bladesong has to burn spells to get that AC out of bladesong.

The bladesinger has to pump dexterity to keep his AC high, making her spell saving throw lower

The bladesinger only has proficiency in daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, light crossbows and one other 1-handed melee weapon. She does not even have simple weapon proficiency.

And the bladesinger is the most powerful class in the game. I think this illustrates my point!

OK. In terms of class performance in combat: why?

Because it breaks action economy.

Also as a point - you can effectively do this with a fighter Eldritch Kingth using Action Surge starting at level 3. He can do it once per short rest. He can do it twice at 17th level. He could do the attack-shatter combo you noted at 7th level once per short rest and twice total per day.

Similarly an 11th-level wizard can effectively do this with contingency once a day (twice a day with a day to prepare), burning a sixth level slot and a known spell to do it. Even at level 20 he can't do this more than once per LR.

Why do you think this character should be able to do it more than that? When it takes an EK until level 7 to do shatter/attack and Bladesinger until level 11 (albeit with more powerful options available) - how can you say it is balanced when you want to do this more often than either, and at an earlier level to boot?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I said I would make it a 5th-level spell. A full caster would have to be 9th level to cast a 5th-level spell two times a day. Further as I have alluded to earlier, a full caster would not have things like heavy armor or martial weapons and it would be a specific spell, it would count against spells known and would not be an extra 9.5 damage to any spell he wanted to cast.

For example, this caster would have in his spellbook a custom spell called "Fireball with enhanced damage to one creature" that spell would be a 5th level spell, it would count against his spells known. He would also have to know a 3rd-level fireball if he wanted to be able to cast a normal fireball. If he wanted an enhanced lighting bolt he would need to know another 5th-level spell known to do it with lightning bolt. This balances the ability by taking away the versatility and tying it to the specific spell in the same manner as the spells you are comparing it against. Arbitrarily adding damage is fundamentally different than adding damage to a specific spell.

Don't several existing subclass features do exactly this already, just with a little less damage? (Adding casting modifier to spell damage.)
I know Celestial Warlocks get something like that, and I'm sure other classes do as well.

An extra 9.5 damage on a fireball is a full 2 levels higher in casting and it is not something that can be combined with another spell.

If you're using Fireball as a single-target spell.
Is that something that you do often?

Mostly I am worried about breaking action economy regularly - allowing two actions on one turn repeatedly.

Shouldn't be an issue: - Remember we're talking about a character that doesn't get multiple attacks so it is less "Two actions!" and more "Additional damage to one target of the spell provided you make a hit roll and they are in reach/range of the weapon."

When applied to chromatic orb it outdamages a paladins smite cast with the same slot by a full 33% and when you consider all the variations for different spells it adds far more variety to the effects and delivery. That is OP by quite a bit.

Hmm. No. I don't think so. Remember that we're not comparing one specific ability against another, we are comparing performance of the entire character against another. Worrying about comparing with Paladin Smite is only relevant if the archetype has the same performance as the Paladin in other ways.

So yes, casting chromatic orb using a 1st-leve spell slot for this is VERY overpowered. If you upped the slot and made it be cast 2 levels higher (use a 3rd-level slot to cast it as a first level spell) it would not be so bad in terms of damage disparity. I still think it would be very powerful because of the sheer variety but would not be op. This would mean with a half-caster you could not do it at all though until 9th-level and not be able to do it with a 3rd level spell until 17th-level.

Why specifically would a half-caster not be able to do this until 9th level with a 1st level spell?

They more than balance out the differences, because they do not make you choose between dex and strength

To start with your math is incorrect. In melee Martial weapons are worth 2 points of damage for a dex-based character (dagger 2.5 vs Rapier 4.5).

In strength-based melee weapons it is 2.5 damage without a reach advantage (staff/spear vs greatsword) or 1 point with a reach advantage (staff vs glaive/halberd). Note I did not consider a Lance in this discussion because of the limited conditions it can be used effectively. This is a baseline, it gets worse when you consider armor as well.

Heavy Armor with a shield is 10 points of AC vs an unarmored character. Further it is always on and does not cost any spell slots. Yes you can build a high-dexterity character to be close to or even better than that with limited use abilities and spells but you have to invest a ton to do it, especially in dexterity itself, which reduces the variety of weapons you can use for damage and the effectiveness of your spells.

To put a number on this when we are talking about both of these at the same time - investing in dexterity to boost AC means you can't boost strength and can't use a staff effectively. So now you are not comparing a staff to a greatsword any more. Instead you have to go finnesse and now you are comparing a dagger to a greatsword. That is a whopping 4.5 points of damage difference. Boost strength to use a better weapon and your AC is no wear near what it is with plate. The guy with heavy armor gets both of these (high AC and high strength weapons)

Then given the subclass in question never granted Heavy Armour, that should alleviate your concerns on that front shouldn't it?

In theory no. But the Bladesinger is the most powerful subclass in the game by a substantial margin and we don't need an even better GISH that would be more powerful yet.

In short, they should be equal and that is why you whould not be able to swing a sword and cast an action spell on the same turn.

Yes and they can not both cast a leveled spell and make an attack as an action, even at 20th level. Finally they are a third-caster, not a half caster.

Yes, far more powerful than any other class can do. As I said above classes should be about equal.

Look at what other classes can do in terms of mixing sword and spell and base your build on that if you want it to be equal.

We are looking at a subclass that has equivalent performance, not a class that does exactly the same things in the same way as other classes.

The bladesinger is not taking 2 actions on his turn to do it, further at the level she gets fireball she can only even attack once per turn.

The bladesinger doesn't have heavy armor, and can use bladesong only 3 times per day at that level to get AC equivalent to this and out of bladesong has to burn spells to get that AC out of bladesong.

The bladesinger has to pump dexterity to keep his AC high, making her spell saving throw lower

The bladesinger only has proficiency in daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, light crossbows and one other 1-handed melee weapon. She does not even have simple weapon proficiency.

And the bladesinger is the most powerful class in the game. I think this illustrates my point!

No, I don't think so.
No-one other than you is talking about taking two actions in a round.
The suggested subclass doesn't have heavy armour, so that was never a worry.
Everyone wants high Dexterity, because of the all-important Initiative, as well as one of the more common saves that characters tend to have to make.

Also as a point - you can actually do this with a fighter Eldritch Kingth using Action Surge starting at level 3. He can do it once per short rest. He can do it twice at 17th level. He could do the attack-shatter combo you noted at 7th level once per short rest and twice total per day.

The Eldritch Knight would be making multiple attacks, each dealing more damage, in addition to being able to cast the Shatter spell wherever they wanted. Furthermore, the Eldritch Knight is probably dealing more damage on the other rounds in the combat, when they aren't burning spell slots.

Why do you think this character should be able to do it more than that? When it takes an EK until level 7 to do shatter/attack and Bladesinger until level 11 (albeit with more powerful options available) - how can you say it is balanced when you want to do this more often than either, and at an earlier level to boot.

Because I do not think that it will push the overall performance past that of a Bladesinger for example. The subclass's main damage capability comes through the use of spells, but they are only a half-caster. - But a half-caster without Heavy Armour proficiency, Extra Attack, Fighting Style etc. The intent behind adding a weapon attack to spellcasting is to bring the power of the spell up to the same level as a spell that a full-caster like the Bladesinger could cast at the same level.

 

[ECMO3]

Don't several existing subclass features do exactly this already, just with a little less damage? (Adding casting modifier to spell damage.)
I know Celestial Warlocks get something like that, and I'm sure other classes do as well.

Not on someone with heavy armor or martial weapon proficiency and not this much damage as far as I know. With the 50 or so subclasses maybe there is something I am not remembering.

I think school of evocation is what you should compare this to. That subclass is supposed to be the most damaging caster in the game in terms of big bang damaging spells and she gets a flat +5 to evocation spells only at 10th level (assuming you took your ASIs for boosting intel), and an enemies save can typically reduce this in half.

At 14th level she can get max damage on a spell of 5th level or lower ONCE a long rest. on a 5th-level fireball that is 35 points once a day. If she does it more than once she takes damage herself and she can't do it at all on non-evocations.

Obviously she has no armor proficiencies at all and does not even have simple weapon proficiency.

If you're using Fireball as a single-target spell.
Is that something that you do often?

Well yes. Fighting a blue dragon or a frost giant or any other boss not resistant to fire and fireball is going to be my go-to 3rd level spell if I can get it off without hitting allies (or sometimes even when I do have to hit an ally).

But let's turn this arguement upside down - you want to take the attack action and deal damage everyone in a 20 foot radius. How often do you attack and deal damage to every enemy inside the range of a fireball? How many other classes can do that?

Shouldn't be an issue: - Remember we're talking about a character that doesn't get multiple attacks so it is less "Two actions!" and more "Additional damage to one target of the spell provided you make a hit roll and they are in reach/range of the weapon."

It is an issue. To start with no PC gets multiple attacks like monsters do. PCs get extra attack which is part of the same attack action. They do not get a second action to attack again.

With bounded accuracy it is an issue and it is not just me saying it, the DMG actually says it as well, stating in the section on custom rules that changes to the rules which alter concentration or action/reaction/bonus action unbalance the game.

Hmm. No. I don't think so. Remember that we're not comparing one specific ability against another, we are comparing performance of the entire character against another. Worrying about comparing with Paladin Smite is only relevant if the archetype has the same performance as the Paladin in other ways.

It is a half caster with martial weapons and heavy armor. In concept it is closer to Paladin than any other class in the game, it just has far better combat abilities and a far better spell selection. Doing this just a few times a day will dish out more extra damage than a Paladin with all his smites combined and you will still have most of a day's spells remaining.

It doesn't matter what class you compare it to though. It will outrun them all in damage, while be better protected and with top tier hps and great spell selection.

Why specifically would a half-caster not be able to do this until 9th level with a 1st level spell?

The damage in raw numbers is equivalent to a 2nd-level spell slot tacked onto an attack, but it is much more flexible because you can use any spell. Given that it should require a 3rd-level slot, instead of a second which is available to a half caster at 9th level.

Then given the subclass in question never granted Heavy Armour, that should alleviate your concerns on that front shouldn't it?

If it gives no armor at all, is limited to wizard/sorcerer weapons and is a d8 for hps it would eliminate a lot of them You are still breaking action economy at will and that should not be taken lightly, but you would be squishy without race or feats to make up this ground in terms of weapons and armor that would at least be closer to balanced.

Such a character could still be built into the theme you want with race and feats, but there would still be a price to pay for the OP ability you want to give it.

We are looking at a subclass that has equivalent performance, not a class that does exactly the same things in the same way as other classes.

No official class/subclass in 5E has equivalent performance to a character that wears heavy armor, martial weapons and can both attack and cast a leveled spell in the same action. This would be on a level of its own.

No, I don't think so.
No-one other than you is talking about taking two actions in a round.
The suggested subclass doesn't have heavy armour, so that was never a worry.
Everyone wants high Dexterity, because of the all-important Initiative, as well as one of the more common saves that characters tend to have to make.

Casting a spell and attacking in the same turn is two actions in a turn.

The Eldritch Knight would be making multiple attacks, each dealing more damage, in addition to being able to cast the Shatter spell wherever they wanted. Furthermore, the Eldritch Knight is probably dealing more damage on the other rounds in the combat, when they aren't burning spell slots.

They can cast shatter once a day at 7th level on the same turn they attack. They can not do "whenever they want".

You are also wrong when you say EK would strictly be dealing more damage using extra attack.

Using cantrips make up a lot of ground towards matching extra attack. Someone taking one action and using GFB with a rapier at 5th level is doing 13.4 to one creature and 7.8 to another for 21 total and your GISH can do this every single turn without using extra attack at all. A EK using extra attack with a rapier is actually doing LESS total damage -17.4 total to 1 creature. This is why a baldesinger is so powerful because he can use a cantrip and extra attack both, dealing 29 total.

Change it to a greatsword it is closer 24.1 with GFB, 22.7 using extra attack but the cantrip is still more. Those numbers all assume 18 S/D, 16 int and consider crits.

Now, an EK can use the cantrip too but if he does this he matches the regular "every round" damage of your character exactly, not beating it at all and when you switch to attack and spell you beat him buy a LOT that turn and since you are a half caster you have more spells to boot. At higher levels when the EK gets warmagic or 3 attacks with extra attack he can move ahead, but not by a lot, certainly not by as much to equal the spell you are going to toss 3 or 4 times a day.

Because I do not think that it will push the overall performance past that of a Bladesinger for example. The subclass's main damage capability comes through the use of spells, but they are only a half-caster. - But a half-caster without Heavy Armour proficiency, Extra Attack, Fighting Style etc. The intent behind adding a weapon attack to spellcasting is to bring the power of the spell up to the same level as a spell that a full-caster like the Bladesinger could cast at the same level.

It will, with the weapons and armor it will push it over what a full caster can do and it is not just the damage, it is the effects. You can hit a boss for debilitating damage and then hit him with a hold person or a hypnotic pattern. That is op, no way around it. A full caster can't do that normally.

Also let's be clear "like the bladesinger" means it will match the most powerful class in the game. If you really want a balanced class you need to aim lower. The reason the bladesinger extra attack was changed between SCAG and TCE was for people who wanted to "mix sword and sorcery" like you are talking about, the original bladesinger with a "normal" extra attack was not enough. Allowing a cantrip on extra attack was the least offensive way and least unbalancing way they could do it and that transformed the class from a top-tier subclass to the most powerful subclass in the game bar none. The ability you want to hand out is even more powerful than this.

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

But the Bladesinger is the most powerful subclass in the game by a substantial margin and we don't need an even better GISH that would be more powerful yet.

A few follow-on questions:

1. Do you have substantiation for that claim ? They certainly rate well but no tier ranking I've ever seen has them the most powerful in the game. To me, Twilight / Peace cleric maybe, but Bladesinger ?
2. Are you of the impression that people want something that is more powerful than the bladesinger ? That's not what I'm reading in the thread, and it's certainly not what I'm proposing. To me, people seem to be asking for something somewhere in the space b/w an EK and a bladesinger, and most people are suggesting being a half caster to balance it out like a paladin, ranger & artificer are.
3. Perhaps a more helpful way of articulating it might be "more of a gish" than bladesinger, rather than "even better" than bladesinger, does that clarify ?

PS, to me a spellstrike / divine channeling type ability is one thing a gish might/could have, but it's not core concept to me like arcane self-buffs are. I would prefer to see spellstrike be the rock feature for one subclass rather than a core class feature. I understand this is different to divine smite / hunter's mark being core class features, but that's just my preference. So to me it's not a deal-breaker.

 

[Tinker-TDC]

Just went and started reading the 4e Swordmage powers and I gotta say, it seems pretty fun.

However, on reading it (I have only finished up to the level 2 utility powers) it seems like the only way to get that type of feel would be to release probably 3-8 spells each of levels cantrip-5. I don't think that's even a bad idea actually, Paladin has their smites and Ranger has their abilities that should be class features but are spells instead so why wouldn't another martial half-caster get their own custom spells to make the class work?

Also my 2 cents on the stored spell going off when your weapon hits: Don't give them fireball. It really seems to be the biggest issue on this subject and it's a spell that is already intentionally unbalaced. Make them get War Magic at 7-8th level so they don't compete with full-casters at low level and, like war magic, make it a bonus action to make a weapon attack after casting a spell.

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

Just went and started reading the 4e Swordmage powers and I gotta say, it seems pretty fun.

However, on reading it (I have only finished up to the level 2 utility powers) it seems like the only way to get that type of feel would be to release probably 3-8 spells each of levels cantrip-5. I don't think that's even a bad idea actually, Paladin has their smites and Ranger has their abilities that should be class features but are spells instead so why wouldn't another martial half-caster get their own custom spells to make the class work?

Also my 2 cents on the stored spell going off when your weapon hits: Don't give them fireball. It really seems to be the biggest issue on this subject and it's a spell that is already intentionally unbalaced. Make them get War Magic at 7-8th level so they don't compete with full-casters at low level and, like war magic, make it a bonus action to make a weapon attack after casting a spell.

Hehe yeah, swordmage was hella fun

Ok, what about this, if we're trying to get something somewhere b/w EK & bladedancer and somewhere in the vicinity of the artificer and/or swordmage, why not see if can't just smoosh together the existing abilities from those 4 and see what we can come up with ?

eg: Gish
HD: d8, Weapons (Simple), Armor (Light), Saves (Con, Int), Tools (None), Skills (2 from Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, History, Insight, Investigation, Perception)
From Swordmage: Arcane Warding at L1 (+1 AC, or +3 if empty hand), maybe something mid-teens level from Swordmage PP ?
From Battlesmith: Spellcasting as per Artificer at L1 (weapon as focus instead of tools), Battle Ready at L3 (Martial wpns, Int to hit/dmg), Arcane Jolt at L9 (dmg version only), Spell-storing Item (weapon only) at L11
From EK: Fighting Style at L2, Weapon Bond at L3 (summon weapon, can't be disarmed), Indomitable at L9 (reroll saves)
From Bladesinger: their version of Extra Attack at L6 (2 atks, sub 1 for a cantrip)

Maybe also adapt the Artificer infusions, instead of being item enchants to being self-buffs, a bit like Warlock Invocations. We could call them Enhancements, can only effect yourself (ie can't enchant an item and give it to someone else).
Examples:
Enhanced Arcane Focus (+1 spell attacks, ignore half cover w/ spell attacks, +2 at L10)
Enhanced Defense (+1 AC, +2 at L10)
Enhanced Weapon (+1 attack and dmg, +2 at L10)
Awareness (Adv on Initiative, can't be surprised)
Mind Sharpener (4 charges, succeed failed concentration check, regains 1d4 charges daily)
Radiant Weapon (pre-req L6, +1 atk & dmg, shed light, 4 charges, spend charge to blind attacker as reaction, regains 1d4 charges daily)
Repulsion Shield (+1 AC, 4 charges, spend a charge to push an attacker 15' as a reaction to being hit, regains 1d4 charges daily)
Resistance (resistance to one dmg type)
Spell Refueling (use action to recover spell slot 3rd level or lower, usable again next day)

Would need suitable editing/adjustments to the artificer spell lists too. Remove the healing spells & revify at a minimum. Perhaps add back in the Battle Smith ones.

Thoughts ?

Edit: In before comments about cherry-picking the best abilities from the strongest classes in the game and combining them all into a super class

It should be noted that this proposed class has NO Action Surge, Second Wind, Full progression spellcasting, Steel Defender, Extra Attunements, Skill Expertise, Bladesong, Song of Defense, Song of Victory, etc etc

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Just went and started reading the 4e Swordmage powers and I gotta say, it seems pretty fun.

However, on reading it (I have only finished up to the level 2 utility powers) it seems like the only way to get that type of feel would be to release probably 3-8 spells each of levels cantrip-5. I don't think that's even a bad idea actually, Paladin has their smites and Ranger has their abilities that should be class features but are spells instead so why wouldn't another martial half-caster get their own custom spells to make the class work?

Also my 2 cents on the stored spell going off when your weapon hits: Don't give them fireball. It really seems to be the biggest issue on this subject and it's a spell that is already intentionally unbalaced. Make them get War Magic at 7-8th level so they don't compete with full-casters at low level and, like war magic, make it a bonus action to make a weapon attack after casting a spell.

Yep this is 90% of my issue with the arcane gish options we have. Paladin and Ranger have their own spell lists which are designed to work with the class, and so it blends well. The arcane gishes are glued to the wizard list, which is incredibly powerful, but not designed around blending with weapon strikes.

The duskblade/magus/swordmage have their entire mechanical identity based around magical weapon strikes, so trying to replacate it with eldritch knight or bladesinger is just disappointment central.

Literally just giving eldritch knight and bladesinger a big collection of spells which follows the same formula as ensnaring strike and searing smite would solve 90% of my arcane gish wants. Sure I'd rather it was a half caster instead or a 1/3 or full caster, but I can deal with that.

I'm finding it depressing that a lot of my arcane gish arguments are just being completely brushed aside as I'm tainted by the same brush as the people who just want some powergaming uberclass which has no downside.

 

[Tinker-TDC]

I'm finding it depressing that a lot of my arcane gish arguments are just being completely brushed aside as I'm tainted by the same brush as the people who just want some powergaming uberclass which has no downside.

Ain't that the truth. I think it should be about on-par with Paladin (currently the closest class to what I'm looking for) but even then I think if it was people would call it OP because the 5e Paladin is just incredibly competent.

 

[Tinker-TDC]

The Arcane Warrior

Level	Prof	Features	Techniques Known	Spells Known	Cantrips	Spells
1	2	Spellcasting, Mystic Path	-	2	2	2
2	2	Fighting Style, Mystic Technique	2	3	2	2
3	2	Sustained Magic, Mystic Path Feature	2	4	2	3
4	2	Ability Score Improvement	2	5	2	3
5	3	Extra Attack	3	6	2	4/2
6	3	Mystic Path Feature	3	7	2	4/2
7	3	War Magic	3	8	2	4/3
8	3	Mystic Path Feature	3	9	2	4/3
9	4		4	10	2	4/3/2

Class Features​

As an Arcane Warrior, you gain the following class features.

Hit Points​

Hit Dice: 1d10 per Arcane Warrior level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 10 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d10 (or 6) + your Constitution modifier per arcane warrior level after 1st

Proficiencies​

Armor: Light armor, medium armor, shields
Weapons: Simple weapons, martial weapons
Tools: None
Saving Throws: Constitution, Intelligence
Skills: Choose two skills from Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, History, Insight, Investigation, and Perception

Equipment​

• (a) scale mail, (b) leather armor, or (c) chain mail (if proficient)
• (a) a martial weapon and a shield or (b) two martial weapons
• (a) a light crossbow and 20 bolts or (b) any simple weapon
• (a) a dungeoneer's pack or (b) a scholar's pack

Spellcasting​

You've studied the workings of magic and how to cast spells, channeling the magic through your masterful technique. To observers, you don't appear to be casting spells in a conventional way; you appear to produce wonderous effects that lash out from your weapons.

Weapons Required​

You produce your arcane warrior spell effects through your weapons. You must have a spellcasting focus-specifically some kind of weapon-in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an "M" component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the weapon to use it in this way. See the equipment chapter in the Player's Handbook for descriptions of these weapons.

Cantrips (0-Level Spells)​

At 1st level, you know two cantrips of your choice from the arcane warrior spell list. At higher levels, you learn additional arcane warrior cantrips of your choice, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Arcane Warrior table.

When you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the arcane warrior cantrips you know with another cantrip from the arcane warrior spell list.

Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher​

At 1st level, you know two 1st-level spells of your choice from the arcane warrior spell list.

The Spells Known column of the Arcane Warrior table shows when you learn more arcane warrior spells of your choice of 1st level or higher. A spell you choose must be of a level that you can cast.

Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the arcane warrior spells you know and replace it with another spell from the arcane warrior spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

Spellcasting Ability​

Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your arcane warrior spells; your understanding of the theory behind magic allows you to wield these spells with superior skill. You use your Intelligence whenever an arcane warrior spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for an arcane warrior spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier

Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier

Mystic Path​

At 1st level, you choose a path shaped by your history and how it has shaped your fighting style. Your choice grants you features when you choose it at 1st level and additional benefits at 3rd, 6th, 8th, 14th, and 18th levels.

Fighting Style​

Starting at 2nd level, you adopt a particular style of fighting as your specialty. Choose one of the following options. You can't take a Fighting Style option more than once, even if you later get to choose again.
-Arcane Ward: When you are wielding a weapon with which you are proficient in one hand and nothing in the other hand and another creature hits you with an attack, you can use your reaction to add your proficiency bonus to your AC for that attack, potentially causing the attack to miss you.
-Arcane Warrior: You learn two cantrips of your choice from the wizard spell list. They count as arcane warrior spells for you, and Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for them. Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of these cantrips with another cantrip from the wizard spell list.
-Blind Fighting
-Defense
-Dueling
-Great Weapon Fighting
-Interception
-Protection
-Two-Weapon Fighting
-Unarmed Fighting

Mystic Technique​

As you master the techniques of melding weapons and magic some quirks of the weave have become apparent and you have figured out how to exploit them for your benefit.

Starting at 2nd level, you gain two mystic techniques of your choice. When you gain certain arcane warrior levels, you gain additional mystic techniques of your choice, as shown in the Techniques Known column of the Arcane Warrior table.

Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the mystic techniques you know and replace it with another mystic technique that you could learn at that level.

Sustained Magic​

At 3rd level you learn to pull back excess magical energy from your spells and fuse it to your weapon. After casting a spell that deals damage you may use your reaction to infuse your weapon with the remnants of that spell. For the next minute your melee attacks made with that weapon deal extra damage of the same type of damage dealt by the spell. The weapon’s damage increases by an amount based on your level in this class, as shown on the Arcane Warrior Sustained Magic table.

Arcane Warrior Level	Bonus Magic Damage
3rd	1d4
10th	1d6
16th	1d8
20th	1d10

Ability Score Improvement​

When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can't increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

Extra Attack​

Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

War Magic​

Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.

Mystic Path Example​

Note that the idea of mystic paths based on personal history just seem like one of many ways to do it. This one seemed inoffensive to the idea of a mystic warrior at the very least but I am not particularly attached to the flavor of it over anything else. If it is "How you learned your style" then level 1 subclass seems appropriate whereas if it is "Your specialty within the bigger group" level 3 may be a better starting point.

Path of the City Guard
Lv. 1
-Heavily Armored: You have proficiency in Heavy Armor.
Lv. 3
-Something's Not Right Here: You know the spell Detect Magic and can cast it as a ritual.
-Arcane Bulwark: When you take the Dodge action you add your Intelligence modifier to your AC as well as the AC of all creatures of your choice within 5 feet of you.
Lv. 6
-Stop Right There!: You know the spell Hold Person and may cast it once per short or long rest without expending a spell slot. When cast in this way the duration is "until the end of your next turn."
Lv. 8
-The Full Force of the Law: When you cast a spell that targets a single friendly creature they may use their reaction to move up to half their speed and make a single melee weapon attack. You may use this ability a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus and regain all expended uses on a long rest.

Path of the Psychic Warrior (Jedi)
Lv. 1
-Unarmored Defense: While you are wearing no armor and carrying no shield you may add your Intelligence modifier to your AC.
Lv. 3
-Psychic Assistance: You know the Mage Hand cantrip and the hand is invisible when you cast the cantrip with this trait. You may also cast Jump and Feather Fall each once per short or long rest without expending a spell slot. When cast using this ability these spells may only target you.
Lv. 6.
-Thrown Weapon: You are able to accurately hurl any weapon and cause it to return immediately to your hands. The range of your melee weapon attacks is increased by 30 feet.
Lv. 8
-Intercept Missiles: As a reaction when you would be hit by a ranged attack you may make an attack using a melee weapon you are holding. If your attack roll is higher than the ranged attack roll made against you you cause the attack to miss as you cut the projectile from the air.

Mystic Technique Example​

The idea of Mystic Techniques is to add at-will magical effects that tie into the fighting style without requiring they be spells so the Arcane Warrior can maintain being a mix of magic and fighting all day and not revert to 'just a fighter but worse' when their spells go out. It was important in my design that they DO NOT INCREASE DAMAGE so ones put in with more rp or exploration focus are not immediately put aside for the ones that boost combat ability. These should increase versatility, not DPS.

-Blink: When you take the attack action you may teleport 10 feet towards a hostile target before making any attacks.
-Draw Forth: When you take the attack action you may pull a medium or smaller creature up to 10 feet towards you before making any attacks.
-Flame Affinity: You may choose for any melee weapon you are wielding to deal magical fire damage instead of its normal damage type.
-Seer's Awareness: You cannot be surprised.
-Gravitic Strike: The first time you hit a creature with a weapon attack on each of your turns that creature's speed is decreased by 10 feet.
-Eldritch Pursuit: As a bonus action you may teleport up to 30 feet towards the last enemy you hit with a weapon attack.



As with Paladin 9th, 13th, and 17th should be 'dead' levels for class features because you're getting 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spells at those levels.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Ain't that the truth. I think it should be about on-par with Paladin (currently the closest class to what I'm looking for) but even then I think if it was people would call it OP because the 5e Paladin is just incredibly competent.

Any point between paladin and ranger is basically ideal for me. Which is a nice spread, as paladin is one of the most powerful classes (seriously our lvl 12 paladin almost one shotted Vanifer from full health last session), while player handbook ranger is often considered one of the weakest.

I definitely think that an arcane swordmage should not come close to the nova potential of a paladin. Pumping out massive damage numbers constantly has never been that classes focus.

 

[Tinker-TDC]

Any point between paladin and ranger is basically ideal for me. Which is a nice spread, as paladin is one of the most powerful classes (seriously our lvl 12 paladin almost one shotted Vanifer from full health last session), while player handbook ranger is often considered one of the weakest.

I definitely think that an arcane swordmage should not come close to the nova potential of a paladin. Pumping out massive damage numbers constantly has never been that classes focus.

Agreed. Unlike the Paladin whose best use of spell slots is Divine Smite I think the Swordmage should best use their spell slots...casting spells? That's where I got the "Sustained Magic" feature above from to encourage casting a spell to open and then by round 2 they should be able to go for it in melee without feeling like they're no longer magical. The bonus damage die scales like the "Fighter: Brute" UA where they wanted to make a Champion that was on-par with Battlemaster so if it's fine for a four-attack class at level 20 it should be fine for a two-attack class that is incentivised to do more than just make weapon attacks.