D&D 5E Giving the arcane gish an identity.

[Bolares]

I mean if you want to insist that in your head, the artificer is only a gadgeteer, that is fine.

That's the beauty of using artisan tool's as focuses. You could be a scribe, a summoner that uses wood figurines to cast magic... a lot more than just a gadgeteer...

 

[jmartkdr2]

Well, EK/Bladesingers make great defensive options, with a lot of great spell choices...

Good at defense, but they have bupkis for offensive weapon-magic options, which is why people don't see them as a total answer.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I'm also a big fan of reflavouring, so if my player wants to make a Sorcadin or Paladock and reflavour the paladin parts to be arcane I'm certain I'd find a way to make it work. I know reflavouring is not the answer to this thread but I think it's something we tend to overlook as a simple solution.

I mean that's what I've always tried to do. I played eldritch knight to level 11 and hated it (to the point where the DM let me respec as a cleric instead after that). Currently I'm running a reflavored single class hexblade, re-themed as an ice swordmage.

Some DM's will even let the player switch out class features and spell lists to make something fit even more.

But the issue with that is there are plenty of DM's who do not allow that. As seen with many threads, lots of people will insist that a class/subclass has to follow the exact described lore in the book and nothing else. The hexblade thread trending near the top of this forum is a pretty clear example of that.

 

[Minigiant]

In my head
The arcane gish would be a wizardly warrior that casts cantrips that a full wizard would never bother too and masters them.

Basically it would be like how the warlock treats eldritch blast, the arcane gish get a few weak cantrips and upgrades them as they level. There would be cantrips for melee weapons, ranged weapons, armors, helmets, and shields:

• gishblade - make a melee attack with a greatsword, longsword, shortsword, Deal fire damage.
• gishbow- make a melee attack with a longbow or shortbow. No ammo needed. Deal fire damage
• gishstaff- make a melee attack with a glaive, halberd, pike, or staff. Deal fire damage.
• gishshield- you shield gets bonus AC.
• gisharmor- your armor gets bonus AC
• gishhelm- your body gets bonus AC

An arcane gish would get 2 of these cantrips and upgrade them as they level: 1st, 2nd, and every 3 levels after.

A swordmage uses gishblade and gishshield
A duskblade use gishblade and gisharmor
A spellbow uses gishbow and gishheld
A warstaff uses gishstaff and gisharmor
A mageglaive uses gishblade and gishstaff

 

[jmartkdr2]

But I feel the best would be to build the most basic Gish class, not worrying about “story”, and then let the subclasses tell the story and handle the advanced mechanics - whether swordmage, duskblade, bladesinger, eldritch knight.

This is what I have been working on. Based on some of my own thoughts, as well as many from here and elsewhere. Unfortunately, I haven’t had the chance to play test any of it yet.

I'm not sure that's an option either, since gish is such a broad mechanical concept. The subclasses need to both provide the bulk of the mechanics and the bulk of the story - and you need a ton of options outside of that.

Imagine trying to build a warlock class, except you need to include prepared, spellbook, and known spells variants as well, with each having a choice of spell lists.

 

[Tinker-TDC]

I mean if you want to insist that in your head, the artificer is only a gadgeteer, that is fine.
But mechanically and thematically, the artificer is the arcane half-caster class that channels magic through objects, like weapons. Including having specific abilities to cast spells through their weapon, use Intelligence as a weapon attack/damage stat, having weapon attacks that deal elemental damage etc.

I'm actually thinking of something a little like the Guardian Armourer, but layering infusions on a weapon instead. Focus on mobility and damage rather than tanking, with a rearranged spell list with less buffs and support, and more smites.
Add a few more infusions to grant capabilities like unarmoured AC, Elemental attacks and suchlike, and it is sounding fairly close to what it seems a lot of people want the Stabnerd to be capable of.

I think of all the options currently available the Artificer is by far the best at representing what I'm looking for so far.

I even think if there was a Tasha's option to swap out certain class abilities like it did with the ranger it would be a good chassis.

Change "Magical Tinkering" to a bonus cantrip or a weapon ribbon ability.
Change "Tools Required" to "Weapons Required".
Change "Infuse Item" to something akin to maneuvers but explicitly magical that may or may not spend a spell slot.
Add a few weapon-focused subclasses.
Change "The Right Tool for the Job" into another weapon ribbon.
Change "Tool Expertise" into...well, you get the point.

The Artificer has 11 subclass abilities and of those two (Spellcasting and Flash of Genius) are not based around magic items (what I'd refer to as gadgeteering but I understand some folks might not.) Now I do think if you build specifically for being a melee combatant and you reflavor all your magic item stuff as martial technique stuff and maybe grab a feat for a Fighting Style you'd be able to make a pretty good Swordmage for sure. Just as I think reflavoring a specific Paladin build could make a good swordmage or reflavoring a Ranger could make a good Arcane Archer.
My major thoughts, though, are that if it were codified as a class it would open up a new it will open up new thought-processes for subclass design and fill out more options from there.

Now, I do understand people worried about class bloat and I will say that I am usually in the "more options=better" category for the sake of building options to make an idea come to life. I'll start worrying about class bloat when we exceed...let's say 16 classes.

 

[cbwjm]

Most prior arcane gishes have had them do intense training to learn how to blend magic and martial ability together.

"You studied and practiced for years to master your skills. You mastered the fundamentals of arcane magic and combined this academic study with endless hours of physical training." - From the swordmage description.


How is the arcane dish different to other kinds of dishes?

Are there any good recipes to follow? What kind of ingredients are needed for the food to count as arcane?

I actually have a society called the arcane order of culinary arts in my homebrew that create all kinds of delicious magical treats and dishes.

 

[Bolares]

But the issue with that is there are plenty of DM's who do not allow that.

This baffles me? Why wouldn’t the DM let the player have their choice if it has no mechanical effect? But I agree reflavoring can’t be the ultimate answer

 

[ECMO3]

Good at defense, but they have bupkis for offensive weapon-magic options, which is why people don't see them as a total answer.

Eldritch knight can be pretty darn good at damage.

For example, letting loose a GWM/GWF greatsword Green Flame Blade, followed by a bonus action attack - At 11th level that is 4d6+2d8+30 (if he takes the -5 to hit) and another 2d8+int to a 2nd target. With GWF he can reroll 1s or 2s on all of those dice. That is about 70 damage per turn average, it is still about 50 even if he does not take the -5. This is without using any slots or limited use abilities. If he lets loose with action surge this will be over 110hp average if everything lands with +10 damage, or over 80 without +10 damage.

Alternatively if he goes sword and board with dueling and shadowblade up at 12th level he is doing 6d8+21 and gets advantage if he is in dim light or darkness while sporting an effective 25AC.

Another great damage option, particularly with a GWF is to take fey touched feat and get Hex along with boosting your intelligence. If you do that you can add another 2/3/4d6 to the damage, again rerolling 1s and 2s. This works with dueling too and gives a fallback damaging option when you are out of 2nd level spells.

 

[ECMO3]

The int classes don't have that. If Eldritch Knights got a good version of Spellstrike (the Pathfinder Magus feature) this thread wouldn't be necessary. Maybe make a feat? They'd blend well with wizards or artificers, and since there's a lot of types of wizards you'd have a lot of potential options without a lot of work.

you could homebrew this and give EK access to the Paladin smite spells through a Paladin version of Magic initiate. That would give them the option of using a spell slot to smite someone.

Thematically I think Hex is just as good though at portraying this and it can already be obtained through two different feats.