Giving twin strike to a fighter

[DLichen]

Well, his AC is better than a two handed weapon fighter since the offhand weapon also functions as a light shield.

And yeah, I removed the +8 strength bonus from twinstrike, the magic weapon bonus and power of crits just make it right back. Then add scimitar dance (dex mod damage on a miss) and it gets even more nuts.

A fighter can't twin strike with scimitars ... it's not an off-hand weapon.

That's not relevant since fighters can't twinstrike in the first place.

It's just a look at why twinstrike is probably the best at will power for damage purposes.

 

[Danceofmasks]

There's no question rangers deal silly amounts of damage.
Zurai was saying it's dramatically better than any of the fighter at wills, well ... I'm not contesting that.
I'm contesting that it's better than basic attack on a fighter .. which is the point of this thread.

 

[DLichen]

I did compare it to the basic attack of a hammer dude with +6 damage bracers. Twinstrike still wins at high levels. And heavy blade opportunity means you can even use it for AoOs.

If you're just referencing the OP about d8 fists, then the reaping strike is probably better than the basic attack in all situations until he gets the bracers, and even then only if the enemy is easy to hit.

 

[erik_the_guy]

Well, his AC is better than a two handed weapon fighter since the offhand weapon also functions as a light shield.

Actually his AC is likely lower, since paying for two magic weapons does not leave a lot of money for good magic armor. Depends on the specific build I suppose

That's not relevant since fighters can't twinstrike in the first place.


It's just a look at why twinstrike is probably the best at will power for damage purposes.

Half-elf fighters can twin strike (can't they)? And I think some multi-class feats let you take other classes powers...

 

[Danceofmasks]

That's not the issue here.
Much of your damage is coming from using a high-crit heavy blade in the off-hand, which a fighter can't do.
The thread isn't about comparing fighter at-wills vs. twin strike, it's "giving twin strike to a fighter."

Which you can do, btw .. with paragon multiclassing.

Now, if you want to use conditional unavailable bonuses, then go right ahead, but your maths is inapplicable.
Using inapplicable bonuses on one side of an argument, while failing to actually use applicable bonuses on the other (such as a vorpal falchion + gauntlets of destruction), is dodgy argumentation.

Btw, weapons are horrendously expensive. One vorpal weapon is feasible, but two is probably not.

 

[Zurai]

1h weapon, maximized damage with basic attack:
10 weapon + 10 strength + 6 item + 3 weapon focus + 9 power attack + 5 vulnerability
Total = 43

Dual wield, maximized damage with twin strike:
10 weapon + 3 weapon focus + 1 two-weapon fighting + 9 power attack + 5 vulnerability + 6 weapon + 3 weapon focus + 1 two-weapon fighting + 9 power attack + 5 vulnerability
Total = 52

 

[DLichen]

Actually his AC is likely lower, since paying for two magic weapons does not leave a lot of money for good magic armor. Depends on the specific build I suppose







Half-elf fighters can twin strike (can't they)? And I think some multi-class feats let you take other classes powers...

You have to paragon multiclass to get another at-will and half-elves only get another at-will as an encounter power.

As for armor, I suppose that might be true at certain levels, but at 30, you're more likely to be missing out on extra wondrous items than a suit of +6 armor since generic +6 is only a level 26 item.

Let's for fun do this with dual throwing hammers cause it's badass:

Since two weapon feats take dex, let's assume +6 mod to con due to MAD, again without the +1 two weapon fighting feat

(8/20) - hit - average 2[w] + enchantment + weapon focus = 16 damage

(10/20) - miss - 6 damage from Hammer Rhythm

(2/20) - crit - 2[w] + enchantment + weapon focus + 1d6 extra = 24.5

*2 for two hits

23.7 damage, still higher than fighter with hammer + braces.

Edit: If you give Hammer basic attack dude power attack - his average damage is 23.95

If you give throwing hammer twinstriker power attack - average is 25.3

 

[Danceofmasks]

edit: was responding to zurai

We do not need more dodgy numbers!
Power attack is only +6 if your weapon isn't two-handed, and you only get the bonus damage for two weapon fighting for your main weapon.

Not to mention you are using more feats and money on your twin striking guy, who is also possibly losing bonuses due having gone paragon multiclass.

Etc. etc.
Now if you plug all those values in to your idealised maximised numbers, you get 43 vs. 45, with the 1-h guy using a shield!

 

[Zurai]

Etc. etc.
Now if you plug all those values in to your idealised maximised numbers, you get 43 vs. 45, with the 1-h guy using a shield!

No, you don't.

10 weapon + 10 strength + 6 item + 3 wf + 6 power attack + 5 vuln = 40
10 weap + 3 wf + 1 twf + 6 power attack + 5 vuln + 6 weap + 3 wf + 6 power attack + 5 vuln = 45

That's WITH a rather improbable 30 strength for the sword-and-boarder. More likely is a 26 strength.


And you're not spending that much more money. If you're only using a single weapon, you're probably going to go with Vorpal or Lifedrinker - Frost is most useful when dual wielding for the doubled vulnerability. A level 30 weapon (vorpal, lifedrinker) costs nearly 150% of a level 28 weapon (frost). Then you have to take the bracers, which are another 15%, just to approximate the same damage.


You were right about power attack and twf, though. Mea culpa.

 

[DLichen]

Not to mention you are using more feats and money on your twin striking guy, who is also possibly losing bonuses due having gone paragon multiclass.

This makes it sound like there's some discussion of a fighter build going paragon multiclass for twinstrike, which while not impossible, isn't really on the table at all.

Twinstrike is also worse starting out, it's not till static bonuses to damage get big that twinstrike becomes superior.

BIG EDIT: In my previous calculations, I counted crits as +1d6 damage when they're really +6d6 damage. This skews the numbers in favor of twinstrike EVEN more, so I won't do any more number crunching unless somebody really wants to know.