D&D 5E GMs of EN World: What player behavior annoys you the most?

[Lanefan]

Hmm, so I never really had problem with malicious players and rules lawyering doesn't really disturb me (I actually welcome it when a player points out a mistake I made, so I can improve on it - also gets me to open threads here considering rules which often results in very useful feedback).

There's a significant difference between pointing out mistakes (always OK) with full-on rules-lawyering where a player is trying to twist the rules to gain some - usually undeserved - advantage (never OK).

I guess what disturbs me the most is metagaming which is getting quite out of hand lately. Like some of my players hardly talk in-character anymore and instead start calculating which action has the highest chance to succeed or results in the highest damage per time. Whenever they face a new enemy, they start discussing his traits and stats and stuff like that.

Some possible solutions here:

1. Introduce a table rule stating that everything said by the players is being said by the characters, full stop, and that characters don't know anything about damage numbers or hit dice or CRs or anything like that. Then firmly and harshly enforce this - every time you hear a number, as in "that'll do 8 points damage on average rather than 6", interrupt with "Your character doesn't know anything about numbers, so why is she talking about them?!" You'll get some arguments, be warned: this isn't an easy process. But it's worth it.

2. Change up the monsters all to hell and gone, such that pretty much all player pre-knowledge becomes useless.

3. Take some numbers knowledge away from the players to throw off their fine-tuning. By this I mean do things like make magic item bonuses (or penalties!) hard to discover, throw in some variables (if you want to go whole-hog, bring back 1e's weapon-vs.-armour type and don't tell them, let them slowly find it out by trial and error), and so forth. Caveat: anything you do here makes more work for you as DM.

Really wish they stayed more in-character and would also do suboptimal actions if it fits to their character.

Yeah, this one's tough. Simplest answer, if possible, is to feed them about four beers each before starting the game, so they'll be a bit more gonzo.

Lanefan

 

[Sadras]

A few others have related how note taking can actually make the game worse. Whether it does or does not is going to vary from table to table, naturally.

Yeah, personally I find this making the game worse because a player doesn't know short-hand baloney. I mean is the DM reading out the History of the Civil War or Plato's Republic? Good grief most of us have finished school and studied further having to keep notes in those institutions - if you cannot take a few notes during a game of D&D... (mind blown).

Your average waiter is able to take a table order without losing the plot, yet some poor fragile players seem to be less equiped than your average waiter.

How do they get dressed in the morning without help?

 

[iserith]

Some possible solutions here:

1. Introduce a table rule stating that everything said by the players is being said by the characters, full stop, and that characters don't know anything about damage numbers or hit dice or CRs or anything like that. Then firmly and harshly enforce this - every time you hear a number, as in "that'll do 8 points damage on average rather than 6", interrupt with "Your character doesn't know anything about numbers, so why is she talking about them?!" You'll get some arguments, be warned: this isn't an easy process. But it's worth it.

2. Change up the monsters all to hell and gone, such that pretty much all player pre-knowledge becomes useless.

3. Take some numbers knowledge away from the players to throw off their fine-tuning. By this I mean do things like make magic item bonuses (or penalties!) hard to discover, throw in some variables (if you want to go whole-hog, bring back 1e's weapon-vs.-armour type and don't tell them, let them slowly find it out by trial and error), and so forth. Caveat: anything you do here makes more work for you as DM.
Yeah, this one's tough.

It sounds like the cure is worse than the disease.

Simplest answer, if possible, is to feed them about four beers each before starting the game, so they'll be a bit more gonzo.

That's better.

 

[Nevvur]

????

I may have missed a bunch of posts, but other than Oofta's comment, I don't think that's a real issue. Some players enjoy taking notes. Some don't. Some enjoy mapping. Some don't. To each their own.

That said, I have yet to come across a party that doesn't keep track of their treasure.

What debate? Since you quoted me, perhaps you can guide me to the debate that I missed?

It started with someone saying their pet peeve was players who don't take notes, and turned into someone saying players should take notes because x, y, z, and the debate ensued. I'll politely decline your invitation to dig through 17 pages of conversation to recap it, though. To be clear, I appreciate many of the sentiments expressed in the rest of your post I quoted, even if I don't agree with all of it. I was just honing in on that particular bit because for myself and at least one other - Oofta, as you identified - it can result in more harm than good. Let me emphasize the word "can" here. It's not a given for me and I doubt it is for him either. Still, I'm pretty sure at least one or two other people echoed these sentiments, but if I am mistaken, pardon my exaggeration. More on this below.

Yeah, personally I find this making the game worse because a player doesn't know short-hand baloney. I mean is the DM reading out the History of the Civil War or Plato's Republic? Good grief most of us have finished school and studied further having to keep notes in those institutions - if you cannot take a few notes during a game of D&D... (mind blown).

Your average waiter is able to take a table order without losing the plot, yet some poor fragile players seem to be less equiped than your average waiter.

How do they get dressed in the morning without help?

Perhaps I should have qualified what I meant by making the game worse. Disruption of immersion, losing the flow of conversation and missing additional details. The speed of conversation means stopping to take notes can waste more time than it saves. Again, it can do this, not does do this. Is it a serious infraction when it happens? Hardly. No one here claimed it's a pet peeve when players do take notes. But for DMs like myself who have arrived at a perspective or practical solution that absolves players of the need to take notes, I would rather they kept their attention focused on the moment rather than worrying they might forget the name of some NPC, location, etc. If something truly noteworthy does come up, I can just straight up tell them they might want to remember it. It's easier for everyone at my table that way.

Sure, as the DM I carry a greater burden when it comes to keeping all the details straight, and no, taking notes is not a difficult job for a player. Yet if players not taking notes and me needing to remind them about details really gets under my skin, I'm going to modify my own behavior before I try to modify others. As I wrote a few pages ago, written and oral session recaps have fixed the problem of player forgetfulness at my table. It just so happens I enjoy doing them so I don't even consider it an additional burden. For DMs who don't have the time or desire to do them... sorry? Wish I had a solution for you, but hey, that's table variation for you.

The bottom line for me is that note taking is a preference, and preferences are not open to debate. We'll get the same mileage from arguing whether chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla. It's fine to prefer that your players take notes (or that they don't). It's not fine when someone uses their preference to cast judgment on other DMs' tables, especially when it was never an issue with those other DMs in the first place.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This is maddening. A broader problem for me is players who simply have no concern about the fun of the group (being self focused only) and dominate and push their weight around. For me, this is worse when they have some sort of uber powerful character that is not plausible from any reasonable story perspective. The old quadruple prestige class juggernaut of yore...or from the old days a similar attitude with nearly all 17s and 18s well beyond what others have for scores.

Funny...it is rare that the super powerful character is rarely supportive. Of all motivation they always end up pushing others around despite alignment or game/story origin...or as above, their game/story ties and "personality" mesh with selfish play.

I did play a Bard in 4e that was only center-stage outside of combat, and was optimized like crazy for support, but most of the time you're right.

Also, seconded on the pet peeves.

 

[dropbear8mybaby]

A few others have related how note taking can actually make the game worse.

Yeah, taking the second or, shock horror, two seconds it takes to write down an important NPC's name is totally unreasonable a task to ask the players to do. And counting their ammunition when stuck in a dungeon environment? OMG! I'M JUST PLAIN EVIL! And recording their own treasure? What am I? The IRS?

I should put myself in chains for being a despicable, horrid DM who demands nothing less than perfection from my players. All twelve of them in two different groups run concurrently. They must be masochists.

 

[Oofta]

Yeah, taking the second or, shock horror, two seconds it takes to write down an important NPC's name is totally unreasonable a task to ask the players to do. And counting their ammunition when stuck in a dungeon environment? OMG! I'M JUST PLAIN EVIL! And recording their own treasure? What am I? The IRS?

I should put myself in chains for being a despicable, horrid DM who demands nothing less than perfection from my players. All twelve of them in two different groups run concurrently. They must be masochists.

You keep making these overblown statements. Why?

Nobody cares all that much what you do or don't do. I've stated my opinion and preference, you've stated yours. I don't care one way or another if my players take notes. I don't think it adds anything one way or another. If they enjoy it great. If not, I'll look back at my notes that I have to keep anyway and remind them of the salient plot details.

In addition, if you can take a literal 2 seconds to write something that will be legible later on more power to you. But if all you write is a name, what's the point?

 

[iserith]

Yeah, taking the second or, shock horror, two seconds it takes to write down an important NPC's name is totally unreasonable a task to ask the players to do.

It takes even less effort to choose not to care about whether players take notes or not.

 

[dropbear8mybaby]

You keep making these overblown statements. Why?

Says the person making overblown statements.

Nobody cares all that much what you do or don't do.

Tell us more about how little you care. Post yet another ten times about it. I'm sure people will believe you then.

 

[Oofta]

Says the person making overblown statements.

LOL. Cuts like a knife from the person who insists on whining in all caps that people are calling him evil when we just politely disagree. Too, too funny.