D&D 5E Goliaths WebDM Misses the Mark, but Sparks My Curiosity

[doctorbadwolf]

To be fair, there's quite a bit of not-RAW discussion about additional or alternate fluff for goliaths in this thread, quite a bit of which you've liked. It appears that it's not adding to RAW that's the problem, it's amplifying the bits you don't like that gets the push back.

Reading this thread, I'm struck at just how much work is being put into making goliaths more interesting past the RAW, which the OP was making the argument they're interesting enough already. There's a fair amount of irony, here.

You’re completely changing the context of my statement in order to argue against a fake version of my position.

I’m not pushing back on addition to the Goliath lore, I’m telling someone that what they’re saying about Goliaths in order to illustrate that they’re super “dark” is not necessary. They’re saying, “these guys are brutal because they’re basically Spartans”, when they aren’t actually described that way, and all the stuff about being super harsh to their kids in order to weed out the weak ones early is literally just something they’re making up.

I’m all for adding to and even reinterpreting dnd races. My reply that you’ve quoted has literally nothing to do with any sort of opposition to that.

As for the supposed “irony”, that’s something you’re inventing, seemingly in order to have a hot take to dump on the thread.

Goliaths are interesting, and we can have fun expanding on their lore and exploring alternate takes on their culture. Those aren’t contradictory, they’re complimentary.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Well, here’s the thing, you could just as easily look at all the text you used to suggest that they’d be brutal to their young in order to make them stronger like the Spartans, and instead go the other direction. They expect the young to contribute once physically able, like practically every society in RL history until less than 100 years ago, but don’t hold them to the harsh standards described in the “survival of the fittest” section until they become adults. But for some reason you’ve gotten on a track where you seem to need to make them out to be as grim dark as you possibly can in order to convince us that they’re dark.

You also could go the other way on the details of leaving behind the “weak” and injured, as I’ve already described. The way you’ve been going isn’t a necessary extrapolation, it’s just one possible direction among many.


Their lore is bad in a few parts. As I said at the beginning of this exchange, you can drop the worst couple bits and they work fine. The competition, focus on accomplishment, fair play, need to be free to wander, feeling at home in the most remote regions of the world, being most at home in a world where survival is actively difficult, etc are all interesting enough to hang a culture on.

Even leaving behind those who can’t keep up doesn’t have to be brütal and grim-dark. Literally just change it to a scenario where the infirm and old and too injured to keep up and whatnot are given basic supplies and sent to live with the lowlanders, next time the tribe is down that way. This is still harsh but not brutally so, they just exile you if you cant keep up, but they do it in a way that isn’t likely to kill you.
Or create clan-holds where the tribes and clans come together seasonally to trade and share news and arrange marriages, and seek council. The disabled, infirm, elderly, etc, live there, and are still expected to excel at something, to keep as fit as their body allows, and to provide utility to the tribe/clan.

It’s a small change overall, but makes them a less ridiculous society, while keeping what makes them unique and interesting.

Sure, it might be unnecessary, but I think I've been unclear.

I never said Goliaths did treat their children like Spartans. That wasn't ever a point I was trying to make. But, I did want to point out that they were more likely to treat childhood as a training period for adulthood than anything else. As a counter-point to the idea that goliaths would encourage childcare because of a lack of elderly to take care of the children.

And, again, I agree that they could very easily simply expect the young to contribute when able to, as has been done for centuries. But, I just wanted to point out that "adulthood" is a very different concept depending on the time and culture you are talking about. And, at least in one section I found which may have been from 3.5, Goliaths at one point seemed to have put "Adulthood" at 10 yrs old.

And, I agree with you, the parts I underlined are interesting. They are parts I kept when I translated Goliaths over. I like that sort of culture, it has plenty of hooks.

We might even be able to make it like you say, and have "exile from the tribe" be a well-supplied trip to a stable community of wise elders instead of exactly what it says. A banishment from the tribe, while they are traveling through dangerous terrain.

But, as much as you might not like it, I think the very easy path I have taken to pointing out RAW lore is a problem for Goliaths. Because, while world-builders and fans are very likely to change this stuff, it is also something that can easily turn off people from the race, because they find the exact same path. Which, actually, ties right back into how I started talking about this. People already said one of the things they liked about Goliaths is that they did not have the dark lore baggage of a race like orcs or half-orcs. Well, actually, they do. It is right there, just far enough under the surface that you can make up some details to make it better or worse, but it is still just as bad as those other races. And if people don't like orcs because of that darkness in their perception, there are likely people who don't like Goliaths for the same reason.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sure, it might be unnecessary, but I think I've been unclear.

I never said Goliaths did treat their children like Spartans. That wasn't ever a point I was trying to make. But, I did want to point out that they were more likely to treat childhood as a training period for adulthood than anything else. As a counter-point to the idea that goliaths would encourage childcare because of a lack of elderly to take care of the children.

And, again, I agree that they could very easily simply expect the young to contribute when able to, as has been done for centuries. But, I just wanted to point out that "adulthood" is a very different concept depending on the time and culture you are talking about. And, at least in one section I found which may have been from 3.5, Goliaths at one point seemed to have put "Adulthood" at 10 yrs old.

And, I agree with you, the parts I underlined are interesting. They are parts I kept when I translated Goliaths over. I like that sort of culture, it has plenty of hooks.

We might even be able to make it like you say, and have "exile from the tribe" be a well-supplied trip to a stable community of wise elders instead of exactly what it says. A banishment from the tribe, while they are traveling through dangerous terrain.

But, as much as you might not like it, I think the very easy path I have taken to pointing out RAW lore is a problem for Goliaths. Because, while world-builders and fans are very likely to change this stuff, it is also something that can easily turn off people from the race, because they find the exact same path. Which, actually, ties right back into how I started talking about this. People already said one of the things they liked about Goliaths is that they did not have the dark lore baggage of a race like orcs or half-orcs. Well, actually, they do. It is right there, just far enough under the surface that you can make up some details to make it better or worse, but it is still just as bad as those other races. And if people don't like orcs because of that darkness in their perception, there are likely people who don't like Goliaths for the same reason.

there is an enormous gulf between “culture that is pretty harsh, but in ways that most ppl aren’t going to take to a darker place than necessary when reading through the race” and “this race was born from the blood of an Evil god of destruction and chaos/a demon prince that made them by feeding demon flesh to hyenas and are driven by his dark will”.

A kinda messed up culture isn’t anywhere near the same level of baggage as “you were born from actual, real, cosmological, Evil, and everyone knows that, and goodly folk distrust you because of it.”

 

[Chaosmancer]

there is an enormous gulf between “culture that is pretty harsh, but in ways that most ppl aren’t going to take to a darker place than necessary when reading through the race” and “this race was born from the blood of an Evil god of destruction and chaos/a demon prince that made them by feeding demon flesh to hyenas and are driven by his dark will”.

A kinda messed up culture isn’t anywhere near the same level of baggage as “you were born from actual, real, cosmological, Evil, and everyone knows that, and goodly folk distrust you because of it.”

Sure, if you actually play with Gruumsh being cosmological evil.

After all, Eberron orcs are very different, and I put a bit of effort in to smooth out orc culture.

But, still an issue for some people, even if I rewrite it or it doesn't apply to that setting. First impressions and all.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Whether or not you approve of the background culture of your race seems irrelevant to me. Heroes and adventurers are almost always iconoclasts that reject the strictures of their native culture in any case.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Whether or not you approve of the background culture of your race seems irrelevant to me. Heroes and adventurers are almost always iconoclasts that reject the strictures of their native culture in any case.

So elven heroes tend to hate nature? Because elven culture tends to revere nature.

Things are far more complex in character building than simply "I reject my nature culture". Firstly, they only reject parts, and secondly, which parts and how they reject them are important too.

Plus, you know, actually knowing what kind of culture you are rejecting.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sure, if you actually play with Gruumsh being cosmological evil.

After all, Eberron orcs are very different, and I put a bit of effort in to smooth out orc culture.

But, still an issue for some people, even if I rewrite it or it doesn't apply to that setting. First impressions and all.

Sure, but we’re either talking RAW or not, right?
Gruumsh is a much bigger part of the orc writeup than the darker aspects of Goliath culture, and yet, people gloss over it or just outright change it. Either Gruumsh isn’t worshipped by all orcs, or the Chaotic Evil depiction is only the belief of some orcs, or some other interpretation entirely.

Still, when we are talking about baggage, and why Goliath appeal to people who orcs don’t appeal to, the difference of prominence matters. Being born from the blood of an evil god of destruction into a culture that eats other people is a vastly bigger thing to grapple with than having culture where some writer wanted to make an example of gritty independence philosophy as a culture.

Goliath’s biggest baggage is something that IME, most players don’t even really realize is there. No one views the common human villager as viewing Goliaths as literal monsters who eat human flesh. That’s an incredible difference.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Sure, but we’re either talking RAW or not, right?
Gruumsh is a much bigger part of the orc writeup than the darker aspects of Goliath culture, and yet, people gloss over it or just outright change it. Either Gruumsh isn’t worshipped by all orcs, or the Chaotic Evil depiction is only the belief of some orcs, or some other interpretation entirely.

Still, when we are talking about baggage, and why Goliath appeal to people who orcs don’t appeal to, the difference of prominence matters. Being born from the blood of an evil god of destruction into a culture that eats other people is a vastly bigger thing to grapple with than having culture where some writer wanted to make an example of gritty independence philosophy as a culture.

Goliath’s biggest baggage is something that IME, most players don’t even really realize is there. No one views the common human villager as viewing Goliaths as literal monsters who eat human flesh. That’s an incredible difference.

I think we are violently agreeing, barring the details.

See, I don't know if "most players" don't realize it. I certainly did when I first read it.

And, while you say that orc baggage is vastly bigger, it could be much easier for people to accept "orc society is this way because they are ruled by an evil god" and thus break the responsibility away from the orcs, as compared to "goliath society is this way because they choose to act this way." Because there is no supernatural force driving goliaths. There is no "Goliaths are this way because of a Demon or an Evil god" they just are this way, and for some players that may be even harder for them to figure out a way around, because they can't take the easy route of just saying "I am immune to this dark entities influence"


Basically, it boils down to individual tastes and mentalities. I don't want to dismiss this as "Goliath's RAW lore is fine, unless you overanalyze and take it too far" because for some individuals, this jumps out immediately and prominently. It is just as big of a problem for Goliaths as the decades of monster status is for orcs and bugbears to my eyes.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think we are violently agreeing, barring the details.

See, I don't know if "most players" don't realize it. I certainly did when I first read it.

And, while you say that orc baggage is vastly bigger, it could be much easier for people to accept "orc society is this way because they are ruled by an evil god" and thus break the responsibility away from the orcs, as compared to "goliath society is this way because they choose to act this way." Because there is no supernatural force driving goliaths. There is no "Goliaths are this way because of a Demon or an Evil god" they just are this way, and for some players that may be even harder for them to figure out a way around, because they can't take the easy route of just saying "I am immune to this dark entities influence"


Basically, it boils down to individual tastes and mentalities. I don't want to dismiss this as "Goliath's RAW lore is fine, unless you overanalyze and take it too far" because for some individuals, this jumps out immediately and prominently. It is just as big of a problem for Goliaths as the decades of monster status is for orcs and bugbears to my eyes.

Okay, I get that. Fair enough.

However, IME, the statement “a lot of the appeal of Goliaths is being the fairly normal big strong race”, still stands.

And I just...it’s a culture. How hard is it to say, “my character doesn’t believe that Goliath culture is healthy, and wants to change it/has no interest in going back bc of it/whatever”.

And as a DM, it seems vastly easier to start an FR campaign, and when a player brings up Goliaths in session 0, say “ignore the survival of the fittest stuff. Instead, in our FR, they have gatherholds/they drop off those who can’t cut it with hill dwarfs or humans and those Goliaths often adventure or become merchants and crafts folk”, than to say, “orcs don’t have an evil society, Gruumsh is Chaotic Neutral, some orc gods are Chaotic Good, and orcs are more like WoW orcs.”

But maybe for some DMs changing origins and God’s is just as easy as recalibrating a culture’s priorities.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The stealing and stuff was just referencing what the Spartans did historically.

But, on the age thing. I read the FR Wiki and in a bit I think they took from the 3.5 lore, it mentions that Goliaths are expected to start contributing to the tribe by age 10. So, the "Adult is a lot younger than you might think" part which was the main thrust, could still stay intact.

Still, it is weird. I'm just showing the RAW, I don't like it or keep it, but I keep getting pushback that it isn't the RAW.

Lore isn't RAW. Random nonsense from the FR wiki or two editions ago is even more worthless. If you can't understand the "pushback" well dude that's on you. What next, I quote 1E stuff about elves or 4E stuff about cosmology and claim it's "Rules as Written" lol?