Good luck to MT team

[BrianB]

I used the original MT that shipped in Dragon and I have to say I had a lot of fun with it. Even though it was incomplete and a little buggy it was a cool way to learn some of the workings of the 3rd edition.

When I heard they were updating it I was really happy. When I heard they were going to have a lot of it in an open format (Access) I was thrilled. As a part time developer I would love to try out new tools like Microsoft’s new Visual Studio using this database as a back end instead of the lame sample databases that ship with Access. I can only imagine what the developer/D&D community will create over time with this tool.

It’s been a little tough seeing the release date pushed back a few times since then but being in the tech industry I know that it’s a fairly common occurrence. I’ve been checking the WotC site every few months for updates and I found this site today. This brings me to the purpose of my post:

I’m a little surprised at all the negative comments being posted about MT. Frankly, I just don’t get why people are upset. Creating this type of application on what I have to assume is a tight budget has got to be really tough. This is a full blown app (not a spreadsheet) with a real relational yet open back end. It’s being bug checked and will have documentation when it ships. The fact that they haven’t released it yet makes me think they have a commitment to quality, which I can appreciate. The fact that they went down a wrong path (3d modeling, sounds, etc) but then corrected their mistake instead of blindly moving forward is also commendable.

Barring some bizarre legal or financial problem, this product will ship. How do I know? Think about it: Even if there are only 10,000 consumers of this product worldwide (an absurdly low estimate) and if WotC only nets $10 on each sale (again, low. I would pay $50 bucks for it – I’ve paid more for that on the books so far) that’s $100,000. Who wouldn’t want a hundred grand?

So soon we will have a product that’s a first of its kind. A professional grade, open, database driven character generator based on the 3rd edition rules. A few won’t like it (nothing can be done about that), many will love it. I for one would like to thank the people who are trying to create this product for us and wish them the best of luck. At this point, I doubt they’ll even need it.

 

[Leopold]

Re: MT Delayed?

So soon we will have a product that’s a first of its kind. A professional grade, open, database driven character generator based on the 3rd edition rules.

hardly first of it's kind. There are character generators out there already that do much more than MT will ever do at no cost at all. It's promise of openess is a vieled attempt at calling to the open source masses. It is far from being 'open', it's access driven which is proprietary and by far the most unstable 'database' software ever written. Open means that you can view the source code and rewrite if you wish. If you mean open by means you can edit files and such then yes it's editable, but by no means Open source.


If it was based on the SQL engine which XP is loosely done I would be more impressed, but Access is hideously unstable when you get down to it.


Will I use it? Oh yes i will. I will see what it has to offer, and then make my final decision. until then the community has great programs out there: PCGen, RPM, Jamis Buck's Generators, etc. that more than fill the void that MT has left.

 

[malakai6276]

I second Leo's opinion... but check out the thread "Is Software next???" about the changing of the gaurd and policy at WotC

 

[Henry]

I have to disagree on a couple of points, Leopold.

True, Access and SQL are not as stable as some other Database engines out there, but for home use, it is "stable enough." For non-corporate-scale DB's out there, it is quite stable, and several fan-based projects are based on it. For datasets of 40,000 records or less, it is as useful as any other database system.

As for being proprietary, the main reason I lobbied for MS access to be the back end two years ago on Eric's site, back when Jim Butler and Fruid entertainment had much more contact with the fan community, was because it was the most accessible database to non-computer programmers that exists. XML, for instance, carries the dual disadvantages of being very slow as dataset size increases, and for having very few user-friendly tools available on the market for fans to use.

I myself, prefer PCGEN (wink wink) but adding new items in the text-based format is both time-consuming and frustrating, especially when building new character classes. Also, the more .lst files that are loaded, the slower and less stable PCGEN becomes (this being on both a Pentium II 233, and an AMD 1.6 GHz system).

Access 2000, OTOH, has conversion filters for most file formats that people use (XLS, TXT, RTF, etc.), and anyone with about 3 hours of Access use can enter data, generate simple queries, etc.

Access is not the perfect tool, but for Mastertools or most any other single-user program, it is "perfect enough."

That said, Mastertools does not have anywhere near the customization capability of programs such as RPM or PCGEN. You can build almost any class combo or special ability you can think of, whereas Mastertools, from release, will be unable to handle:

-Psionicists
-Many prestige classes from the core classbooks (Sword and Fist, etc.)
-d20 Star Wars, Deadlands, and Dragonstar characters
-any special ability that has appeared in a sourcebook that was NOT in the core rules

In short, it will not help me in the slightest for my game prep's, the way my current tools ARE helping me. If WotC decides to amend their policies to make 3rd party tools illegal, and if programs like PCGEN are made unavailable, it will only chill my customer relationship with WotC. This relationship with WotC is strained already with their recent changes toward miniatures, and towards 1e/2e conversions. I don't expect my cessation of buying WotC products to hurt them in the least, but it will make my mind feel better.

 

[BrianB]

Mastertools does not have anywhere near the customization capability of programs such as RPM or PCGEN. You can build almost any class combo or special ability you can think of, whereas Mastertools, from release, will be unable to handle

But how long have these tools been available? Don't you think the same community that has created the features you need will do the same for MT over time? More perhaps, given how difficult these other programs are to modify (according to your post).

How many hobiests out there have the knowledge to work in the RPM or PCGEN enviroments (as far as customizations go). Now contrast that with the number that have a working knowledge of MS Access / ODBC / Crystal Reports / ASP. I think that MT will have a very healthy development community around it, almost from day 1.

Will MT be a more feature rich product than some of the more established products on day 1? No. But at the end of year 1? Perhaps. At the end of year 5? Yes, I think it should.

 

[Mynex]

But how long have these tools been available? Don't you think the same community that has created the features you need will do the same for MT over time? More perhaps, given how difficult these other programs are to modify (according to your post).

How many hobiests out there have the knowledge to work in the RPM or PCGEN enviroments (as far as customizations go). Now contrast that with the number that have a working knowledge of MS Access / ODBC / Crystal Reports / ASP. I think that MT will have a very healthy development community around it, almost from day 1.

Will MT be a more feature rich product than some of the more established products on day 1? No. But at the end of year 1? Perhaps. At the end of year 5? Yes, I think it should.

Not sure about RPM format, but PCGen uses plain text. You're going to tell me that more people know access than plain text? don't think so.

But regardless of that, people making products to help MT, most definately, and I'm all for that, in fact I WANT it. The more tools the better.

But WotC 'Fan Base' playing catch-up to what existing programs do will take a serious amount of time. Time that is used by existing programs to get further and further ahead.

MT is starting with such a huge deficit, it will take more than a year for them to catch up, and the biggest problem that MT user 'Add on' stuff is, no access to the code... so there's going to be some things that just flat out won't be able to be done with MT, and that, again, is a shame on/for WotC/MT.

 

[Leopold]

Will MT be a more feature rich product than some of the more established products on day 1? No. But at the end of year 1? Perhaps. At the end of year 5? Yes, I think it should.

IF (and this is a big IF) they bring out an editor to help transfer or input some of the other publishers information and allow you to build characters OUTSIDE of the WOTC sphere of products.

I do not see this happening for 3 reasons.

1. You would have to get permission from the publisher for this.

Now seeing this happen in MT. The publisher could very well just say "For 4.95 you can download the set of information for you and here you go" and forbid anyone else from entering in their PI. Again, unlikely put possible scenario.

2. MT must have a good editor to input those files and make it easy if not simple to create objects within access.

PCGen uses plain text as mynex said. Now MT can be as simple as opening up MS Access and adding in a few lines to the database. Is that easy? Sure I don't see why not. BUT! You must have a copy of MS Access to do this unlike pcgen which requires a text editor (notepad, wordpad, edit.com, etc.) which is free. Is this a drawback? Could be.

3. WOTC could just tell the people "NO, buy it from us for add-ons"

They have said this already. We have to 'pay-to-play' with MT. I for one very much disagree with this stance. What better way to get yoru product out than by just giving away a few of the books and later on down the road saying "We told you we will be charging more for this and now we are" stance. I could agree with this policy on a business standpoint. But for each book to cost money just to input and build characters off of? Ridiculous.


All in all I am looking forward to MT and seeing what it comes out with. I hope that it is released and we can see if all this worry, hype, and promises come to a final conclusive end.