Grappling Revision

[RangerWickett]

Well, my ultimate goal is a system where there aren't pre-set powers. I sort of think attacks should be dynamic and based on the situations of combat, not laid down in a book.

When I start my next campaign, magic items won't be necessary. All PCs will get inherent bonuses to attacks, damage, and defenses, and when they do get magic items, they'll be items that can do nifty stuff, rather than add numerical bonuses. Even then, disarming someone will be useful, but I figure most PCs will have back-up weapons.

Obviously these changes wouldn't work for all games.

 

[Stalker0]

Capn is right you have to be careful not to step on the toes of something which should be a power...

Keep in mind that normally tripping with this power would require 2 standard actions...plus the opponent is going to have a chance to escape, or the opponent could try and trip you! With all of those caveats, I think its fine to allow the trip mechanic as is.

 

[Garthanos]

Well, my ultimate goal is a system where there aren't pre-set powers. I sort of think attacks should be dynamic and based on the situations of combat, not laid down in a book.

you just laid these down fairly solidly so even if that is your goal, this is probably not really a step towards it, except if giving all power options well set and defined to everyone so they have to learn a bunch of special case rules is your first step ;-)

I guess it is valid do involve two actions so they are nerfed, and it does sometimes take a bit to get past a weapon to do the grapple in the first place. The martial artists grab and sweep is likely in one sequence (ie one action).

So the martial artist of your game has a kick up the grab feat - may do a grab and supplemental move as one action?

 

[RangerWickett]

What I mean by dynamic is that, if you have a power that says, "Deal 2[w] damage and knock them prone," and your normal at-will just does 1[w], you'll use the knockdown power every combat, regardless of if it actually helps or is interesting.

I want to open up options. The way 4e powers are normally designed, you do the same suite of tricks every combat, and most of those tricks aren't that interesting. Oh, he's slowed. She's prone. That thing takes a -2 penalty to attacks. It's boring.

I want PC tricks to create original situations, and the key to 'original' is avoiding doing the exact same thing every combat because, hey, you may as well, 'cause you get to roll an extra d8.

 

[Garthanos]

How about this dynamic situational modifiers.

You create a system of easily added advantages and disadvantages to the results of an action that all balance out. Make sure those balance very nearly perfectly

Then allow for various specific circumstance where one or another is actually more advantageous...(kind of like how using fire against a creature which cant regenerate when damaged by fire makes fire more useful but only situationally)

In general repeating a move is penalized (normally because they are tricks which you dont want your enemies to be predicting).... so add one of the disadvantages when they try to use it again.

That said are only so many mechanics you can use..how you present them has to vary.
+2 to hit -2 penalty to etc isnt going to go away but it might be pushed under the hood .... but how they are described can readily be different.

I'm sure you've seen this
D&D Fighter Powers - skinning on the fly.

 

[Eric Finley]

Plus, since escaping a grapple is a skill (generally high) check against a defense (scales normally), in practice I find people pop out of grabs far more easily than I'd like. If you're going to fix grappling to be more realistic, I'd start there.

 

[Garthanos]

I use the term repertoire to refer to the core set of things the character knows how to do well (spells, songs, combat moves etc), they help define a combat style. Take the repertoire away and you have to define character types battle style and favorite moves another way lest you throw away something very cool (I don't think descriptive fluff would be enough for most people).
I would say you can reduce the perceived overwhelming benefit of the repertoire by giving generous benefits on improvised moves... especially improvised moves that are similar in nature to ones in their repertoire (ie that fit the characters battle style). This generosity with page 42 doesn't require any special house rules... Allowing improvised moves to include more than one round of action as a disadvantage sounds GREAT... whether that first action is a grab or perhaps a targeted cut to the hand which doesn't do much damage (it could bloody a minion ;-)) but sets up the next action an improvised effect might force a minor action on the part of your adversary (like an improvised disarm which just forces them to drop the weapon at there own feat so they have to pick it up).
An improvised move might give the adversary a choice of taking damage or moving.(the choice is a subtle disadvantage)

Improvised moves can certainly be done using characters at-wills but perhaps using an at will which cant be used as a basic attack in an improvised move requires an additional disad of some sort because you are using it non-standardly?

I do like your ideas on this in part because they got me thinking

 

[Odysseus]

I used similar rules for a Conan game recently.
Rather than call it a grapple ,I called it a Restricted condition.
Effects of being Restricted
You may not use two handed weapons.
You lose any defence bonus granted by your shield.
You can't move unless you take your grabbers with you.

I didn't have any trips. That sounds more like a power.
And I didn't have a penalties/bonues for cover. That sounds like body shield power.

The results of the adventure. It worked ok. Biggest problem as Eric Finley mentioned. Getting out of grabs seemed pretty easy.

 

[Bagpuss]

Well, my ultimate goal is a system where there aren't pre-set powers. I sort of think attacks should be dynamic and based on the situations of combat, not laid down in a book.

Wouldn't you have been better sticking with 3rd Ed in that case?

 

[RangerWickett]

Wouldn't you have been better sticking with 3rd Ed in that case?

Not really. The monsters in 4e are better. The math in 4e is better. And DMG page 42 pretty much accomplishes most of what I want. I just want to make a few house rules tweaks to polish things just right.