Grappling...

[Joachim Pieper]

I haven't got my bokos with me, but this sounds wrong, can someone clear this up.

OK, so 1st level monk grappling 1st level fighter. In the first round, fighter moves next to monk, misses with attack - the monk then grapples successfully with one flurry attack, and uses the other to pin. Referee rules that pin lasts one round, and at the start of next round rules that monk must make another grapple check to maintain the pin. Fighter wins grapple check, referee rules that this frees fighter from grapple. Second attack of monk's flurry misses, fighter smacks monk with sword, winning the combat.

Now, does this seem an odd reading of grapple, or is it kosher?


heers.

 

[Darklone]

A pinned char who wins a grapple check would still be grappling, he's simply not pinned anymore.

If You’re Pinned by an Opponent
When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a –4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.

So the referee was wrong.

 

[JimAde]

I have a longer-winded answer that comes down to the same thing. Your DM is mistaken. It also sounds like the order of events was odd. Your description sounds like this is what happened:

Fighter attacks and misses (apparently the fighter has higher init).
Monk uses his two attacks to establish pin

End of Round 1

Opposed grapple check called for by DM (which apparently counted as monk's first attack) fighter wins, escaping grapple entirely (incorrect as Darklone said).
Monk's second attack misses
Fighter attacks (now going last for some reason...delayed action?) and hits.

End of combat

I think it should have gone like this:

Fighter attacks and misses
Monk uses his two attacks to establish pin

End of Round 1

Fighter goes first. He can delay if he wants. Let's assume he did.
Monk's first attack goes to pinning again. Fighter wins grapple check. Fighter is no longer pinned but is still grappling.
Monk's second attack (might or might not hit since there are modifiers for having the opponent pinned). Assume it misses.
Fighter gets delayed action. Since he was using a sword he can't attack with it because he's still grappling. He would probably try to use his action to escape the grapple entirely. If he wins, the round ends with nobody grappling and nobody hurt, but now the monk has higher initiative.

End of round 2

 

[Joachim Pieper]

he rolled initiative each round, just for kicks...

Thanks, guys.

I guess I'm looking for a couple of specific answers:

1) do you have to use an attack to maintain a grapple each round? Is the grapple maintained with no effort on the part of the grappler?

2) do you have to spend an attack to break a grapple, or does winning a grapple check defensively free you?


Cheers.

 

[MichaelH]

1) do you have to use an attack to maintain a grapple each round? Is the grapple maintained with no effort on the part of the grappler?

As long as the grappler moved into the target's space when the grapple began, the grapple is maintained (PH, pg. 156, Step 4 under Starting a Grapple). Neither grappler must use an attack or make a grapple check to maintain the grapple. However, if one grappler is trying to escape the grapple, his opponent must win an opposed grapple check to maintain the grapple, or he breaks free from the grapple.

2) do you have to spend an attack to break a grapple, or does winning a grapple check defensively free you?

You have to spend an attack to escape a grapple. If you are successfully grappled by your opponent and then your opponent tries to damage you by making an opposed grapple check, and you win the grapple check, your opponent does not damage you, but you have not escaped the grapple. When your turn comes, you must spend an attack and win an opposed grapple check in order to escape the grapple, or you can use your Escape Artist skill check instead of your grapple check, but this requires a standard action rather than an attack (PH, pg. 156, Escape from Grapple under If You're Grappling).

 

[JimAde]

As long as the grappler moved into the target's space when the grapple began, the grapple is maintained (PH, pg. 156, Step 4 under Starting a Grapple). Neither grappler must use an attack or make a grapple check to maintain the grapple. However, if one grappler is trying to escape the grapple, his opponent must win an opposed grapple check to maintain the grapple, or he breaks free from the grapple.


You have to spend an attack to escape a grapple. If you are successfully grappled by your opponent and then your opponent tries to damage you by making an opposed grapple check, and you win the grapple check, your opponent does not damage you, but you have not escaped the grapple. When your turn comes, you must spend an attack and win an opposed grapple check in order to escape the grapple, or you can use your Escape Artist skill check instead of your grapple check, but this requires a standard action rather than an attack (PH, pg. 156, Escape from Grapple under If You're Grappling).

But remember: escaping/maintaining a pin is different. If I'm reading the rule correctly (no guarantee) you must make an opposed grapple check each round to maintain a pin. If you don't, the opponent is automatically released from the pin on your turn, but he is still grappled. I don't like this rule, since it means you can never pin someone and damage them unless you have multiple attacks, but I think that's how it's written.

 

[Darklone]

Yes, it's how it's written. You can pin and damage the guy if you and some buddies are grappling him.

 

[Vraister]

Hey,
can a Druid in animal form, lets say black bear for example, use one of his claws to maintain the pin and the other to damage the opponent? Grappel says you can't use two weapons in a grapple.

Vraister

 

[MarauderX]

But remember: escaping/maintaining a pin is different. If I'm reading the rule correctly (no guarantee) you must make an opposed grapple check each round to maintain a pin. If you don't, the opponent is automatically released from the pin on your turn, but he is still grappled. I don't like this rule, since it means you can never pin someone and damage them unless you have multiple attacks, but I think that's how it's written.

Maintaining a pin is free if your opponent didn't win the opposed check that she had on her turn. Otherwise the pinned would have 2 chances to be unpinned per round. That monk that pinned her would only have to face her opposed grapple check or make an escape artist check. Once she lost, her turn is done and she remains pinned for the rest of the round. The monk that pinned her can now deal out unarmed attacks to do either subdual or actual damage without having to re-pin her first.

And... if you look at this other thread you will see the split hairs that determined that you cannot use a flurry of blows to make a grapple, disarm, trip, etc. as flurry of blows should be an option of an unarmed attack, the same as electing to grapple, disarm, trip, etc.

 

[ZansForCans]

If I'm reading the rule correctly (no guarantee) you must make an opposed grapple check each round to maintain a pin. If you don't, the opponent is automatically released from the pin on your turn, but he is still grappled. I don't like this rule, since it means you can never pin someone and damage them unless you have multiple attacks, but I think that's how it's written.

Our group just fully realized this recently, and at first I too chafed at this. But, after thinking about it, I really think it's much more balanced. The lack of actions available to the pinned foe and the extra -4 to AC are pretty good to have to waste an attack for. In particular, since the foe is open to sneak attacks the loss of AC can be pretty dangerous.

BTW, from the opening post, there is one rule quibble I'd have besides the one you were asking about. If I were being strict with the rules, I'm not sure I'd allow a Grapple (or Disarm/Trip) with a flurry of blows: "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons." But, maybe my arm just needs to be twisted