Grappling...

[JimAde]

Hey,
can a Druid in animal form, lets say black bear for example, use one of his claws to maintain the pin and the other to damage the opponent? Grappel says you can't use two weapons in a grapple.

Vraister

I believe the Improved Grab description says you can maintain the grab with just one limb, but you take a -20 on your grapple checks to do so. But a black bear only has a +6 grapple check and no improved grab, so I'd say no. He'd probably be able to bite, though.

 

[ZansForCans]

Maintaining a pin is free if your opponent didn't win the opposed check that she had on her turn. Otherwise the pinned would have 2 chances to be unpinned per round. That monk that pinned her would only have to face her opposed grapple check or make an escape artist check. Once she lost, her turn is done and she remains pinned for the rest of the round. The monk that pinned her can now deal out unarmed attacks to do either subdual or actual damage without having to re-pin her first.

No, the duration of the pin is for 1 round from the time you take the "Pin Your Opponent" grapple action. When the pinned foe then tries the "Break Another's Pin," the consequence of failing is not resetting the 1-round pin timer. You do need to burn a grapple check each round to maintain the pin longer than the 1-round duration.

And... if you look at this other thread you will see the split hairs that determined that you cannot use a flurry of blows to make a grapple, disarm, trip, etc. as flurry of blows should be an option of an unarmed attack, the same as electing to grapple, disarm, trip, etc.

Thanks for that link. Looks like it came to a grappling match itself in the end

I have to revise what I said above because it was sloppy.

You can't use flurry to initiate a Grapple. Once you are grappling, you can use the "Attack Your Opponent" grapple action with a flurry of blows (with the standard -4 penalty). However, you must use all the flurry attacks for really attacking (no pin snuck in at the end, for example).

You can use a flurry attack to Disarm (unarmed strike or with a monk weapon).

You can't use a flurry attack to Trip. Although Trip requires an unarmed (touch) attack, it does not deliver an unarmed strike--it delivers a trip attack.

There... I feel better now

 

[ZansForCans]

Hey,
can a Druid in animal form, lets say black bear for example, use one of his claws to maintain the pin and the other to damage the opponent? Grappel says you can't use two weapons in a grapple.

Vraister

While pinning,

"You can’t draw or use a weapon (against the pinned character or any other character)"

You can "Damage Your Opponent" while pinning, but without Improved Grab (or being a monk), it looks to me like the damage is nonlethal.

And keep in mind that creatures with natural weapons like the black bear don't usually have iterative attacks. Similar to the restrictions on flurry I posted above, I don't think you can substitute multiple grapple attempts for a natural weapon sequence.

 

[MarauderX]

No, the duration of the pin is for 1 round from the time you take the "Pin Your Opponent" grapple action. When the pinned foe then tries the "Break Another's Pin," the consequence of failing is not resetting the 1-round pin timer. You do need to burn a grapple check each round to maintain the pin longer than the 1-round duration.

I guess we disagree on the rules here. Having 2 chances for the pinned opponent to break free (one just because the pinner can't maintain it?) is not what it says to me.

You can't use flurry to initiate a Grapple. Once you are grappling, you can use the "Attack Your Opponent" grapple action with a flurry of blows (with the standard -4 penalty). However, you must use all the flurry attacks for really attacking (no pin snuck in at the end, for example).

You can use a flurry attack to Disarm (unarmed strike or with a monk weapon).

You can't use a flurry attack to Trip. Although Trip requires an unarmed (touch) attack, it does not deliver an unarmed strike--it delivers a trip attack.

Huh? Those differences don't make much sense to me. Either you can use flurry of blows to disarm & trip & grapple & sunder & etc. or you can't use it for any. They are all special attacks and making the distinction between them in such a way does not conform to the SRD. It's all or nothing. Anything in between belongs in the House Rules forum.

And since you can't use FoB according to the other thread, how would you go about doing damage to a pinned opponent if you don't have any attacks left? And it wouldn't matter for every other class that had pinned someone - how would they do anything else but spend their one attack to maintain a pin? 1st level fighter pins 1st level mage. Now what? Fighter can't strike him according to your interpretation, and the wizard gets 2 chances per round to break the pin. It doesn't read that way to me in the rules and, more importantly for my game, it doesn't make any sense.

 

[ZansForCans]

I guess we disagree on the rules here. Having 2 chances for the pinned opponent to break free (one just because the pinner can't maintain it?) is not what it says to me.

Eh? Maybe I was misunderstanding what you were saying. Weren't you saying:

1. You pin successfully on your turn.
2. Your now pinned foe fails to break the pin on their turn.
3. On your next turn, you are free to act on the still pinned foe and don't have to make a grapple check to maintain the pin.

If so, I was saying: No, on your turn, you still have to make the check to maintain the pin. If you don't, the foe is no longer pinned at the beginning of your turn.

The duration is 1 round. That starts from the moment you successfully make the grapple check to initiate the pin. The rules don't say anything about extending that duration due to an action of the foe (successful or not).

Huh? Those differences don't make much sense to me. Either you can use flurry of blows to disarm & trip & grapple & sunder & etc. or you can't use it for any. They are all special attacks and making the distinction between them in such a way does not conform to the SRD. It's all or nothing. Anything in between belongs in the House Rules forum.

What?

Show me a rule that says you can or can't use the whole set of 'special attacks' for a given attack type/sequence. They all have very specific rules. They are just grouped in the SRD that way because they have rules outside the boundaries of standard attacks and actions (that are quite different from one another), not because they are all a group of special attacks. Whether I can Turn Undead or not has no bearing on whether I can Bull Rush.

And if you are talking about just the fact that Disarm, Grapple, and Trip are attacks and not actions... First, you can't include Sunder because it's a standard action, not an attack. Second, if you read my first post above (sorry I didn't repeat that part in the second post) the restriction of flurry is that you can only use an unarmed attack or a monk weapon. Disarm, Grapple, and Trip have very specific rules about how you use them.

• Disarm is accomplished with unarmed strikes or weapons, thus you can use it in a flurry.
• Trip does not. It uses an unarmed (touch) attack to deliver a trip--not an unarmed strike.
• Starting a grapple also is not accomplished with either an unarmed strike or a weapon. You can't do this in a flurry. You also can't do nearly any of the other grappling actions with flurry (same reason). However, you can "Attack Your Opponent" with an unarmed strike or monk weapon and use flurry.

That's a straightforward application of the rules.

And since you can't use FoB according to the other thread, how would you go about doing damage to a pinned opponent if you don't have any attacks left?

You can't. What makes you think you're entitled to do damage? If you have one attack and choose to anything else on the grappling actions list that requires a grapple check like move or draw a light weapon, you don't get to damage the opponent. Why do you think "Pin Your Opponent" gets special treatment?

And it wouldn't matter for every other class that had pinned someone - how would they do anything else but spend their one attack to maintain a pin? 1st level fighter pins 1st level mage. Now what? Fighter can't strike him according to your interpretation, and the wizard gets 2 chances per round to break the pin.

That's exactly right. Welcome to being a 1st-level character! If you want to take advantage of pinning at low-levels, bring friends. The rogue in your party who is not grappling should be ecstatic to be able to waltz up to the pinned spellcaster who now has -4 to AC, no Dex bonus to AC, and stick him carefully with his rapier for 2d6 damage. Sound pretty effective to me against a 1st-level spellcaster with 4-6 hp...

It doesn't read that way to me in the rules and, more importantly for my game, it doesn't make any sense.

OK, but don't claim I'm house-ruling then Like I said above, my arm can be twisted, but you have to provide some quote or other evidence from the rules. I'm showing you how I'm reading it.

 

[MarauderX]

I'm showing you how I'm reading it.

As did I above. I understand what you are saying, twice, but don't agree that it is the correct interpretation of the rules as printed or posted.
And where is Hypersmurf when you need him?

 

[Hypersmurf]

As did I above. I understand what you are saying, twice, but don't agree that it is the correct interpretation of the rules as printed or posted.
And where is Hypersmurf when you need him?

The bit from the rules-as-printed-or-posted that I feel disallows the use of Grappling in a Flurry of Blows is that Weapon Focus/Specialization: Unarmed Strike are distinct feats from Weapon Focus/Specialization: Grapple.

Thus, a Grapple is not a "type" of Unarmed Strike; it is a separate attack form.

Thus, since it is not an Unarmed Strike, and it is not on the list of "special monk weapons", it is not a valid option in a Flurry.

-Hyp.

 

[ZansForCans]

The bit from the rules-as-printed-or-posted that I feel disallows the use of Grappling in a Flurry of Blows is that Weapon Focus/Specialization: Unarmed Strike are distinct feats from Weapon Focus/Specialization: Grapple.

Thus, a Grapple is not a "type" of Unarmed Strike; it is a separate attack form.

Why do you need to even reach that far, though?

"You make a melee touch attack to grab the target."

There is no hint of unarmed strike in there at all. No damage is dealt by delivering the grab and "unarmed" isn't even in there at all. Although the Grapple attempt as a whole provokes an AoO (success of which negates the entire attempt), the touch attack to grab does not.

Let's pretend that instead the grab was really an unarmed melee touch attack, and thus the grab instead of the Grapple attempt as a whole provoked the AoO. Now monks and anyone with IUS would not provoke an AoO when starting a Grapple. This is certainly not the case (only Improved Grapple or Improved Grab prevent that AoO). Thus, the grab touch attack is intentionally a melee, not an unarmed melee, attack.

As for any other Grapple action, you are making grapple checks which are "like a melee attack roll," but only in the bonus calculation. They are opposed checks, which are nothing like attack rolls. And again, they are most deliberately not even "like" unarmed attacks for the same reason as the grab--making a grapple check does not provoke an AoO. Normally this would be a moot point since your foe doesn't threaten anyway while grappling, but a monster with Improved Grab has the option to not be considered grappling and thus could threaten you. If grapple checks were like unarmed melee attacks, now the monster gets an AoO against you when you do one of your grapple actions--say, try to escape.

They are not unarmed attacks and for good balancing reasons. Allowing them to be considered anything like unarmed attacks or variants of an unarmed strike changes more than just allowing the monk to Flurry with them.

At least, that's my take.

 

[MarauderX]

Grappling and actions...

Re-reading the grappling section once again, I didn't find where it states you need to use an attack action to maintain the grapple and/or pin. What I do see are actions available after the grapple is joined, and all of those specify if the action is made in place of an attack. For example:

Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).

Once you have your opponent pinned you can do a number of things as suggested, though it doesn't say what type of actions these are. However, the 1st level fighter pinning a wizard can deal out damage or take one of the other options.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re-reading the grappling section once again, I didn't find where it states you need to use an attack action to maintain the grapple and/or pin.

You don't need to do anything to maintain a grapple.

Once grappling begins, you remain grappling until someone takes either a Break Grapple or Escape Grapple action and either a/ wins the check or b/ is unopposed (you can let someone go if they try to get away).

But a pin automatically ends at the start of your action. It only lasts one round. So if you want to keep someone pinned, you need to use an attack each round to pin them again.

-Hyp.