D&D 5E Great Weapon Mastery - once more into the breach! (with math)

[Xeviat]

Belay my last line. GWM for my example PC, even if you never, ever use the -5/+10 part of the feat still outdamages PAM (not counting getting a first strike in).

That's how good GWM is. You can remove the part of the feat people complain about most and it still does more damage than an entire feat that people complain about - PAM.

EDIT: I guess someone needs to come up with an idea of how much extra damage a feat should do. Is boosting damage 20% reasonable for a feat? 25%? A GWF Champion simply adding +2 to his STR at level 4 increases his damage 16% versus an AC 15 foe, for example.

The "bonus attack on a crit" part is a pretty big boost in power for those with expanded crit ranges. It's so good that it almost feels "required" on a Champion to bring them up to snuff. I feel the "bonus attack on 0 hp" part is nice, but not too much, as it helps a character who is likely going to overkill things a lot.

In the end, Great Weapon Master should be balanced against +2 to hit. We keep comparing the offensive power of GWM, but I think we (I'm speaking mostly of myself) forget that +2 Str has +1 Str Saves, +1 Str Checks, and +20 carrying capacity. There is defense and utility in there, not just damage. So, it might be okay for GWM to be a bit better offensively than +2 Str, as +2 Str does more things.

BUT, I think that the 20 ability score cap invalidates that a bit. Once you have a 20 Str (lets say at level 8), your ability increases start to become worth less. Sure, everyone benefits from pumping Con at that point (which is what I do when I'm playing around with really basic, raw character comparisons when building/rebuilding classes on my own), but that will cap out eventually too. 5E isn't like 4E, where every build had a primary and secondary stat. Some Classes really only care about one ability score to any great degree (and Con ... omnipresent, desirable Con). So, once your Str hits 20, spending feats on offensive power boosters feels like a no-brainer. Great Weapon Mastery, Polearm Mastery ... these start to look really easy. There's less perceived trade off.

A DM I know didn't like the sound of that, and removed the 20 ability cap in his games. I'll have to ask him how it's turned out.

 

[DaveDash]

Here we are, the final countdown. Thank you for your patience.

So featless Rodrigo went "wait a minute, I have maneuvers too! Ha-ya!". But instead of using precision - he already is pretty good at hitting - he decided to use a maneuver that gives him *damage*. And well... suddenly GWM isn't so awesome anymore. I mean it's still decent, but it's not that stark.

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It's also worth noting that several of the damaging maneuvers only have to be declared when you hit - so there is no chance of a "wasted" maneuver dice. A precision maneuver may fail (ie you need 3 more to hit but you roll a 2 on your d8). Furthermore, several of the damaging maneuvers also can impose negative conditions on the target - fear, being tripped etc.

At this point someone may say "but what if GWM Rodrigo uses precision and damaging maneuvers!" OR a bard inspiration, the luck feat etc etc etc. Sure. But you always have to compare that to featless Rodrigo *also* using more maneuvers, bard juice etc etc etc. And that is THE KEY ELEMENT that seems to be always missing from these analysis - we need to compare like with like. First people were comparing base attacks to GWM + advantage. I showed that if both had advantage, the difference wasn't so great. Then other bonuses got piled on - but again, if you compare PROPERLY it's not such a big difference.

There also comes a point where it's ridiculous to pile too much stuff into a single attack. For example Rodrigo could have had the lucky feat and used it too. Sure but now Rodrigo only has 16 strength... and wouldn't you want to spread out those bonus rolls? Or better yet, keep it for something more important than a single attack, like a key skill check or save?

So in conclusion, I used to think that GWM was OP - maybe not as broken as some made it out to be, but still too good. Now... maybe it's OP?

GWM isn't much of a problem at level 7 IMO, it's later levels (11+) it starts to become more of an issue. More attacks (Fighter), higher stat bonuses, less opportunity cost due to maxed out stats.

Basically GWM damage pulls away the more buffs you throw on the GWM, which aligns to what generally happens in game (characters buff the GWM who goes into battle and causes big damage numbers).

Under 'normal' circumstances GWM isn't that impressive, but remember the GWM player can pick and choose when he uses it to maximise its effect. Past a certain level it's really a no brainer and effectively a must have feat for a melee character, which means IMO that it's not adequately balanced.

Note: I am not factoring in crits, battle master extra attack bonus, or bonus attack from GWM cleave for simplicity sake. Cleave itself also adds quite a bit to the power of GWM since you can proc it quite a bit. Anyhow..



One interesting thing to note about this is if you're a Paladin and smiting, it's typically not worth your while using GWM since your base damage is so high anyway. It does become worth it though if you get a lot of buffs (Vengeance Paladins can self haste and also get advantage using their channel divinity).

In games it's not what is happening on the left side of the spreadsheet that causes DM's to throw their dice out in frustration, it's the right hand side, when the party knows they're coming up to a tough fight and buff their GWM character up the wazoo and let him have at 'em.

And then there's Sharpshooter. Sharpshooter is more of a problem due to the inherent +2 archery style synergy bonus. Throw in crossbow expert for the extra attack and you have fun times. These numbers are just dirty:



You can build an Eldritch Knight that can self haste and pick up crossbow expert and sharpshooter, so it's not too hard to achieve these numbers.

 

[TwoSix]

Under 'normal' circumstances GWM isn't that impressive, but remember the GWM player can pick and choose when he uses it to maximise its effect. Past a certain level it's really a no brainer and effectively a must have feat for a melee character, which means IMO that it's not adequately balanced.

Nice spreadsheets. One quick question; are the barbarian 12 numbers factoring in rage? I see the most right hand data set factoring in frenzy, but it seems odd that fighter and barbarian would be doing identical damage with rage factored in (since frenzy makes the number of attacks equal).

 

[DaveDash]

Nice spreadsheets. One quick question; are the barbarian 12 numbers factoring in rage? I see the most right hand data set factoring in frenzy, but it seems odd that fighter and barbarian would be doing identical damage with rage factored in (since frenzy makes the number of attacks equal).

Ahh I knew I was forgetting something!

I'll re-adjust those numbers and post and updated screenshot a bit later. Thanks for catching that.

 

[TwoSix]

Ahh I knew I was forgetting something!

I'll re-adjust those numbers and post and updated screenshot a bit later. Thanks for catching that.

Great. My assumption would be that as a flat damage increase, it will increase both numbers but not change the difference. (It changes the % difference, of course, but not the absolute value of the difference.)

 

[Guest 6801328]

I would like GWM a lot more if it just left out the -5/+10 part. Getting an occasional extra attack is both cinematically cool and mathematically worthwhile. The -5/+10 just encourages too much "gamism" (is that a word? Maybe "orgamism" is what happens when a powergamer climaxes.
I mean novas.)

 

[Quartz]

I have feeling you didn't even bother to read my post. Now, it's only for Champions with an expanded crit range

So is the problem really the Champion's expanded critical range?

 

[hejtmane]

I would like GWM a lot more if it just left out the -5/+10 part. Getting an occasional extra attack is both cinematically cool and mathematically worthwhile. The -5/+10 just encourages too much "gamism" (is that a word? Maybe "orgamism" is what happens when a powergamer climaxes.
I mean novas.)

You mean what existed in D&D before AD&D existed it even happened in 1e with weapon speed factors, space required etc. By reading the forms also happened in 3, 3.5 and 4. What else is new; there are the people that use it an optimize because they like doing big damage, then there is a group that complain because people optimize and everything in between. Been happening since the dawn of time it is just now it is seen more on messages boards but all this happened back before the internet people were still optimzing characters to do the most damage.

Why do people act shocked about that and why do people act like it did not happened in previous editions before the internet. We optimized back in the old days as while

 

[Helldritch]

I love these threads.

There are basicaly two sides.
Those that say that the feat is OP.
Those that say that the feat is not OP.

I am on the latter. So far, I have yet to see, on a regular basis, GWM and SS do the kind of damage people are claiming to see. Yes it does happen sometimes. But it is usualy against low level, low AC mobs.
Here is what I see happening most of the time.
GWM (or SS) is buffed. Gets in, get to see all his buffs being dispel by a simple low 5th level priest/wizard (or whatever can dispel magic). Player curses and buffers loses a round to rebuff the GWM (or SS) if they have the time to do it. Or as the wizard and priests are concentrating on the buffed character, they get attacked by a sneaky assassin, an AOE spell or whatever else forces them to make a concentration check. A DM I know had a problem with a tough fight he had conconted for his players but he had a lot of problem with the GWM Paladin. He asked me to coDM that fight and I accepted. I modified a his encounter a bit with the knowledge the vilain had gained on the PC (he was their arch vilain). I simply used a Dispel rune at the entry way to the room of the vilain. As the GWM charged in, he got all his spells dispel and I heard a lot of curses from the players. They won the fight anyways. But the fight was a bloody long one (14 rounds!). It was the first time these players had such a long fight. The fights they were used to, were usualy over by round 6.

The GWM and SS feat are as unbalanced as you let them to be. Sure once in a while, all buffs stay up and and the players are quite happy. Sometimes, buffs go down the drain and the curses start to appear. The pitfall I see most of the time is BBEGB (big bad end game boss) with mediocre AC getting toast by a buffed GWM or SS. An Adult blue Dragon with the spell Blur, Shield and Dispel magic can be a real surprise to a group used to make a super powered hitter to the exclusion of everything else. From AC 19 the dragon suddenly has an AC of 24 as a reaction. A simple blur can negate advantage for a long time and a nice dispel can really ruin the one hitter tactic. A simple wing attack on the GWM and there is a real chance that the character gets prone, leaving the dragon in a good position to move on the other characters in the back and using it's breath weapon on the PCs at the rear. These dragons are a good challenge for a 12th to 14th level PCs. The closer the PCs are to the actual CR of the dragon, the more likely it is to see some other underling with the dragon. A dragon priest or two. A wormling or maybe a half dragon or two with their "daddy"? A dragon that old has a few tricks up its sleeves. And what about an Ancient Red dragon with Anti-Magic field as a spell to challenge level 20 PCs?

 

[Guest 6801328]

You mean what existed in D&D before AD&D existed it even happened in 1e with weapon speed factors, space required etc. By reading the forms also happened in 3, 3.5 and 4. What else is new; there are the people that use it an optimize because they like doing big damage, then there is a group that complain because people optimize and everything in between. Been happening since the dawn of time it is just now it is seen more on messages boards but all this happened back before the internet people were still optimzing characters to do the most damage.

Yes, I know, I was playing then also. But thanks for the history lesson...I guess.

Anyway, back on topic, even though I love optimizing characters the +5/-10 thing is too gamist for my taste. YMMV.