D&D 5E Great Weapon Mastery - once more into the breach! (with math)

[hejtmane]

I think, if we fill up the last levels with Rogue, we might be able to pass 100 average damage:
https://1drv.ms/x/s!At-zPv0cZTn6hkonA-UHyfNu5Tek

(EDIT: Oh! I forgot to account for GWF too!)

But lets take this to it's rightful thread?
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?553760-Repeatable-DPR-Kings

Except sneak attack only works with finesse weapons and ranged weapons (page 96PHB)

 

[Yunru]

Except sneak attack only works with finesse weapons and ranged weapons (page 96PHB)

Very good point. Looks like we're still looking for ~7 damage from somewhere.

 

[FrogReaver]

Very good point. Looks like we're still looking for ~7 damage from somewhere.

+1 great sword?

 

[hejtmane]

+1 great sword?

For maximum effect level 20 fighter with gwf+gwm+polearm feat then if you add haste. Assuming Max strength stat and they hit every attack. The math i Saw on gwf was between .5 to 1dpr depending on weapon die. Let's go conservative and say .5 for polearm. Average damage on regular hit would be 21 * 5 + 18 for bonus attack. Laughs at swords

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[Ovinomancer]

I'm going to hate myself for stepping into this-- But removing outliers needs to be justified. Selective removal of outliers is precisely the kind of manipulation that can lead to incorrect statistical representations. Yes, sometimes it is ok to remove outliers-- often there is technical and even statistical justification for it. However, one does not simply automatically remove any values that fall in the tails.

In the case of 12 individuals with 1 short and 11 tall, the real problem is you almost certainly don't have enough samples to form a statistically valid representation of your population. Because, chances are, it isn't inherently normally distributed. Or, you just got a wonky sample.

Averages are great. They are lovely. But they are a tool like any other and their use needs to be examined in the context of the data.

And anyway, that particular contrived example can be easily modified to make the point better. Imagine a population of 100. 50 are 6 feet tall. 50 are 2 feet tall. The average is 4 ft tall. But the average is not an adequate representation of your data. In fact, no one in your population is 4ft tall. In that case, if you simply presented the average, you wouldn't be providing a useful statistical representation of your data. In fact, by itself, it would be a misrepresentation.

Disclaimer: I have made no examination of the data in this case. I have no idea whether using the average is justified. Just don't have the time to go through it. But I couldn't help myself responding to the general idea that averages are always a good representation.

AD

This.

 

[CapnZapp]

I can see CapnZapp point quite clearly. He is right and yet he is wrong.
His calculations are perfect. I have nothing to say about them save that I agree. Maybe I was not clear on that.

Only the first assumption is wrong. A pc can't have advantage all the time.
The white room does not take into account monsters reaction.
The white room does not take into account the loss of resources from previous encounters.
The white room does not take into account the different DM styles.

The "I got a gazzillion ways to get advantage" are all cancelled by one action: "The dodge action." Of course it won't work with only one creature but you will rarely see that. Especially now, that we know that in 5e, boss battle are simply too easy.

From what I have seen in over 15 different groups over the course of 5 years or so of 5ed, the "troublesome" feats come to the fore in a few situations.
-DM allow the 5 mwd. Characters are always at full capacity. The feat abuse door is now wide open.
-DM does not enforce the 4 to 6 encounters per day. Or the way he builds them allow too much resource economy which will allow the 5mwd.
-DM let the "monsters" stay static between the character's forays.

Yep I had had a problem with these feats in the first two groups, in the first few dungeons they did. I told myself what is wrong? I found solutions and put them into play. And all the other DM I knew that had problem with the feats are now applying my solutions. The solutions were to make sure the 5mwd would no longer exists.

With one group it was pretty obvious, the DM had asked me to check his gaming and find the wrong in what he was doing for he could not properly challenge the players without going over board and slay them outright with a challenge way too high for them.

It was a simple assault on a ruined tower with a dungeon in the basement. Players agreed to play it two times. Once with their DM and once with me.
1st attempt.
Total of 5 encounters. 4 of these were easy to moderate with one short rest between encounter 3 and 4. The last one was a boss with three henchmen. Resources are all gone with the first four, so the players go out, make camp. Needless to say that I saw a lot of nova. They get back in where the boss and his henchmen are there, waiting for the players as if nothing happened. Four or five round later, no more bad guys. End of the story.

2nd attempt I stepped in. Same encounters, monster's names are changed (and only the names) the map is a little different but the same principles apply.

After the 2nd encounter, the players want to take a short rest. I oblige them as it should be. After the third encounter, with orogs blocking the entryway and dodging the GWM while the hobgoblins are shooting arrows after arrows they want to rest again. The room 4 get the jump on them as they try to rest. I almost killed them. They get their rest (finally) but it transforms into a long one. They finaly come to the end boss room only to find it empty. The boss is gone with his henchmen along with any treasure that wasn't nailed down to the walls.

I agree to a third time. Players start to keep resources and don't go nova all the way as usual. I even see the barbarian dodging at one point. A short rest between fight 3 and 4. And get to the endgame boss with quite a few less resources than they expected. The battle is a long one, it lasts 12 or 13 rounds with a knight intercepting the GWM and he started to play the I dodge and I parry you with the poor player almost screaming how unfair it was. Meanwhile, the boss and his two other henchmen are engaging the other players. The rogue of the players goes down but he's not killed. When they finaly won, with the bosse's death at the hand of the rogue, the knight surendered... (he was almost dead anyways).

The players much prefered the last fight. They were proud of having won with much hardship.
A white room calculation would not have predict that outcome.
No it was not a battle master but a barbarian. They did not have the standard array but well rolled up characters. They were level 5.
But I saw the same scenari over and over again with the same results.

Yes these feats, left uncheck, can be quite the destroyers of fun and versatility of play. Yes they can be quite unbalanced. But a few simple change in style and they get back to where they are supposed to be. And if you do this, you'll start to see some changes in player tactics. Builds will start to diversify and you'll have fun again because players will surprise you.

As I said, these feat will be as unbalanced and disruptive as you let them to be.

What I see here is that the feats nearly destroy your game, requiring a master DM to spend considerable effort intervening.

I wonder if you haven't inadvertently given the best argument yet to replace/nerf these feats.

The game clearly couldn't handle them. Only you could. Congratulations...?

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[CapnZapp]

That is the thing I like to hear. Actual gameplay example. 18th level is nothing to sneeze at. And yet, you can challenge your players. I am sure that they will remember this fight a lot longer than if they had just cruised it with ease.

And so your conclusion is "the game works perfectly regardless of feats, because the DM can always work harder to compensate"

Know what? I'd much rather have a game, and a feat, that works right out of the box.

Where the DM can run encounters straight out of the published supplements.

When you say encounters aren't hard enough, and that boss fights are too easy, why don't you see you're describing the other side of the SAME coin that has way too strong feats on the other...

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[CapnZapp]

This.

Thank you for setting the record straight here. I really appreciate it.

Back to before this subthread: don't use a simple average when it would lead to completely misleading data.

Most obvious case: computing GMW data for, say AC 10 through AC 20.

This is plain wrong, since it makes the assumption the warrior will keep using GWM even against very high AC where it actually drags down the average and thus works to make you draw the false conclusion the feat isn't all that much better than not using it, and thus leads you to conclude there's nothing particularly overpowered about it.

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[Helldritch]

What I see here is that the feats nearly destroy your game, requiring a master DM to spend considerable effort intervening.

I wonder if you haven't inadvertently given the best argument yet to replace/nerf these feats.

The game clearly couldn't handle them. Only you could. Congratulations...?

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It is not only me that could handle the feat. But a lot of DM.
The trouble with these feats is that 5ed came right in after 3.5 and 4ed which had a dramaticaly different playstyle. I remember quite well the 5 mwd of these editions. It was quite the trap. People had to adjust to the "new" style of old D&D that 5e introduced. DM coming from these editions were a bit left out in the woods on the advice side. The encounter builder doesn't really work well. They changed it in an UA. Still not perfect but much better than what is in the DMG.

The game is evolving. So should a DM.

 

[Helldritch]

And so your conclusion is "the game works perfectly regardless of feats, because the DM can always work harder to compensate"

Know what? I'd much rather have a game, and a feat, that works right out of the box.

Where the DM can run encounters straight out of the published supplements.

No RPG games, save boardgames, can be played right out of the box. I know that as a young DM I made quite a few mistakes. I still do. As for playing the encounter right out of the published supplements... I never, ever did that. Whatever the edition, I adapt the supplement to my groups. Most of the published adventures have whole experience gaps between levels. That is on purpose to help you insert some of your own created stuff to make the adventure truly your own. Or you can play it as they are if you use the mile stone system they provide (and nothing prevents you to include your own stuff...).

When you say encounters aren't hard enough, and that boss fights are too easy, why don't you see you're describing the other side of the SAME coin that has way too strong feats on the other...

Some of the young DM I have coached were not even using feats... Imagine now those that had feats and were coming from older editions... Some of these games were a nightmare. I was not a savior, I simply showed them the UA encounter building advice and pointed them the ineffectiveness of the 5mwd. . Their games suddenly got better. They didn't needed a full training boot camp for their games. Just a nudge in the right direction. The rest, they did it by themselves. All of a sudden, these feats (where they were used) are no longuer OP in these games too.

I love to see a GWM, SS or even a CE plowing through mobs or even beating on a BBEGB. Sometimes it works out quite well. At other times, these feats are completly shut down. A GWM stuck in combat with a high AC opponent. A horde bypassing the S&B to go straight at the SS or CE. Those feats can be litteraly shut down almost effortlessly. Just vary the kind of encounters you create. Destroy the 5mwd (and I can't stress enough how this last one is important) that alone is the EVIL of 5e. It is the trap by which all sins and abuses can be put on.

And no matter how many mobs the GWM/SS or CE can plow through, they won't beat a fireball, ice storm or meteor swarm... And now I should add some priest spells too...