D&D 5E Greater Invis and Stealth checks, how do you rule it?

[Ovinomancer]

So are blinded creatures aware of the location of everyone who hasn't taken an action to hide?

Quite possibly, yes. This is, fundamentally, a game, not a reality simulator. Think about closing your eyes and everyone around you is doing something noisy -- moving, interacting, fighting, whatever -- and you're going to have a pretty good idea that they are there and even the general location they may be. Remember that "locating" in 5e is to a 5 foot square area. That's not a small area for a person to be in, and they can be anywhere in that volume. The impact of this is that, if you wanted to throw a ball at someone in the room with your eyes closed, you'd probably have a good idea where to throw it in general, but still have a pretty small chance of hitting them -- which is what the automatic disadvantage represents. Now, if the people around you are quiet, or there's some other environmental thing that would make it difficult for you to locate them, that's where the GM ruling comes into place. You might not be able to locate them to even within a 5' square area. You can still throw the ball, but you'd be even less likely to hit as you're now fully guessing.

In both cases, though, you might be aware a person is nearby, but be unable to locate them.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Stop telling me what I do or do not think or agree to.

Great! Please elucidate yourself, I'm all ears!

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Quite possibly, yes. This is, fundamentally, a game, not a reality simulator. Think about closing your eyes and everyone around you is doing something noisy -- moving, interacting, fighting, whatever -- and you're going to have a pretty good idea that they are there and even the general location they may be. Remember that "locating" in 5e is to a 5 foot square area. That's not a small area for a person to be in, and they can be anywhere in that volume. The impact of this is that, if you wanted to throw a ball at someone in the room with your eyes closed, you'd probably have a good idea where to throw it in general, but still have a pretty small chance of hitting them -- which is what the automatic disadvantage represents. Now, if the people around you are quiet, or there's some other environmental thing that would make it difficult for you to locate them, that's where the GM ruling comes into place. You might not be able to locate them to even within a 5' square area. You can still throw the ball, but you'd be even less likely to hit as you're now fully guessing.

In both cases, though, you might be aware a person is nearby, but be unable to locate them.

If people are running around five feet is hella accurate. Try playing dodgeball in a largeish are while blindfolded with people who are constantly moving. You would probably hear people moving and might have some idea that there was someone in some general direction but you wouldn't know who. You would have equally good chances of hitting your own team mates. The idea that a person without some sort of super senses could automatically and without a fail track positions of possibly several people without relying on sight is patently laughable. It truly boggles my mind that people would even suggest anything remotely of the sort.

You talked about defaults, so here is my default: that creatures primarily use sight for perceiving locations of things and if that is not possible it significantly hinders their capability to tell where anything is.

 

[Maxperson]

What is the invisible character doing that is stealthy in combat if not trying to achieve the benefits gained by the Hide action?

It's not about being stealthy. It's about whether the invisible character is heard or not over battle or other circumstances. If the circumstances indicate the the invisible character is not heard, it's hidden. If they indicate the possibility that it's not heard, I assign a DC and roll perception.

 

[Oofta]

There are going to be many situations where exact location is unknown. Whether that's because you can't see a creature because you're blind, they're invisible, behind a wall, or ran around the corner of a building. It also depends - is you group all in the same place or are they spread out?

I remember backpacking once and even though I couldn't see it I knew the approximate direction and distance (way too freaking close) of something big in the brush. But it was quiet, the animal (likely a grizzly) was loud and it was only my nephew and I. We were manly and refrained from screaming.

On the other hand, as others have said, try to close your eyes during a basketball game and locate everyone. Go outside, close your eyes and tell me if you can locate every bird that is simply flying by without making noise.

There is no default, no assumption in the rules that you know where your opponents are even if you can't see them. There are only judgement calls based on the situation. In my games that may give you location if they're close enough, a general direction if they're more than 10 ft or so away, or nothing at all because when the rules are silent I assume things work like they do in the real world.

 

[iserith]

So are blinded creatures aware of the location of everyone who hasn't taken an action to hide?

Being considered hidden from another creature requires not being seen clearly and not being heard. A blinded creature can't see another creature clearly, so that's one of the criteria for being considered hidden. Now the latter must be resolved. Can the blinded creature hear them? Without that information, your question can't be answered.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Being stealthy still requires a check.

It's not about being stealthy.

You talk about stealth checks in combat and when I ask what the stealth check is for, if not to achieve the benefits of the Hide action, you say "it's not about being stealthy." Wha?????

Let me ask the very specific question again:

What is the invisible character doing that is stealthy - or, if you prefer, requiring a Dex(Stealth) check - in combat if not trying to achieve the benefits gained by the Hide action?

It's about whether the invisible character is heard or not over battle or other circumstances. If the circumstances indicate the the invisible character is not heard, it's hidden. If they indicate the possibility that it's not heard, I assign a DC and roll perception.

I understand. You feel that environmental conditions may sometimes eliminate the need to be stealthy in order to be unperceived by an enemy. I'm not sure anyone is arguing against that.

Let's say the situation is a combat where there are no special environmental effects (fog, spell effects, full cover, etc) that affect perception. There's just the combat noise that could be a factor in hearing someone who is invisible. At what noise level do you draw the line for an invisible creature to be heard or not, assuming they are not actively trying to be stealthy? Are they always unheard if it is a battle with armored combatants with metal weapons?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Being considered hidden from another creature requires not being seen clearly and not being heard. A blinded creature can't see another creature clearly, so that's one of the criteria for being considered hidden. Now the latter must be resolved. Can the blinded creature hear them? Without that information, your question can't be answered.

Right. But some people think that this locating by hearing is automatic, and I strongly disagree with that.

 

[Oofta]

You talk about stealth checks in combat and when I ask what the stealth check is for, if not to achieve the benefits of the Hide action, you say "it's not about being stealthy." Wha?????

Let me ask the very specific question again:

What is the invisible character doing that is stealthy - or, if you prefer, requiring a Dex(Stealth) check - in combat if not trying to achieve the benefits gained by the Hide action?
...

They don't have to "do" anything anymore than someone on the other side of the world has to be unseen and unheard.

We know you can't see an invisible creature. Therefore it's down to can you see some environmental impact that you can see that gives away their position or you hear them. No action on their part required, just a judgement call from the DM based on the current situation.

 

[iserith]

Right. But some people think that this locating by hearing is automatic, and I strongly disagree with that.

I think it would be except for extenuating circumstances (e.g. silence spell) since an effectively invisible creature does still have to be quiet to be considered hidden, and in combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around.