Greyhawk Setting Ressurected? Sorta Kinda..

[Legba]

You are. In every issue of Dragon magazine, and now Dungeon magazine, there has been a dedicated Greyhawk section called the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.

Now, admittedly, it's not much and it's certainly not on par with modules, or boxed sets, but then it is Greyhawk specific and it is done by fans of the setting.

I stand corrected. I don't read Dragon, so it's not something I'd look for.

I'm sure they do make quality work. But what constitutes 'the original'? To me, Carl Sargent's work is the best written and designed of all Greyhawk products. However if you listen to most of the die-hard, old schoolers over at Kenzer, then he's practically Satan.

A version that is 'true to the original', therefore, would most likely do away with all the fantastic material that has been produced for the setting and has given it the life it currently has. That's not a Greyhawk I'm interested in and not a Greyhawk I particularly want to see come about.

That's intresting. I had no idea there were so many different versions of GreyHawk. In that case, I can see where the conflict steems from. And I'm glad that I'm not Kenzer & co and have to work my way through all that baggage!

Well, I disagree. I've done a number of 1st/2nd ed. conversions to 3rd ed. and have found it incredibly easy to do. The most significant difference between the editions is that 3rd ed. has a rule for something whereas in 2nd ed. you had to make it up yourself. This lead to huge imbalances in the system, something that was addressed in 3rd ed. by standardizing various rules.

In fact, converting something to 1st/2nd ed. from 3rd ed. is FAR more difficult. To do the reverse, all you have to do is find the rule and apply it. Do do this, you have to make it up yourself based on... nothing but luck, hope and whatever ingenuity you have. [/B]

Since I'm not on the conversion comitee, I can't realy say why they said it was so hard. However, I can extrapolate from what you say that the reason could be that they want a working two-way conversion. And since HackMaster has more in common, rules-wise, with 1st/2nd ed, it'd be harder to come up with conversion scales. That could be it.
But if it's easy to convert from 1st/2nd, then you shouldn't have too much problem converting from HackMaster (we can hope), making the whole issue of HackMaster vs d20 a bit less of a problem.


Emanuel

 

[DDK]

But if it's easy to convert from 1st/2nd, then you shouldn't have too much problem converting from HackMaster (we can hope), making the whole issue of HackMaster vs d20 a bit less of a problem.

...

Damn... I really walked into that one didn't I? I'm supposed to be arguing against this!

But seriously, the issue I have with Kenzer doing this isn't the Hackmaster system. Ultimately I care less about the system being used. I love GURPS books not for the rules but for the content.

And that's where the problem arises. If Kenzer were to adopt the 1st ed., old school, EGG only stance, then the material produced would conflict and ignore the majority of material that has been created for the setting. Material that I love and use in my campaigns and games. Material that the majority of fans base their campaigns and games on too.

There were, IIRC, 30,000 Living Greyhawk players alone and they're but a minority when it comes to the overall fanbase of Greyhawk. However they're also representative of the majority, in that they have adopted a lot of the material that has been produced over the last twenty years for the setting. Material that the die-hards would have you dismiss as trash.

 

[Legba]

...

Damn... I really walked into that one didn't I? I'm supposed to be arguing against this!

And I'm very gratefull you did. Doesn't happen to me every day, you know.

As for Kenzer & co's reendition of GreyHawk... from all I can see, they're taking it very seriously, and taking their time with it. They've been activly looking for fan input on the setting, and have asked on several occasions to be directed to websites where they can get into contact with the fans of the setting. Gygax was the first choise, but that's simply because there were a lot of people on the forum clamoring for Gary to do it -- if there had been fans clamoring for someone else to do it, they'd have made them their first choise instead. The best thing to do if you're opinionated about how GreyHawk should be done, is to contact Kenzer & co about it. Even better, direct them to a website or forum where people share your attitudes, because that way your ideas will have a stronger input.

And if anything, GreyHawk is a long time off yet. They're still in the 'throwing ideas around' stage. Which, of course, means that this is the time when fans have the most input. Which we like.


Emanuel

 

[JeffB]

...

And that's where the problem arises. If Kenzer were to adopt the 1st ed., old school, EGG only stance, then the material produced would conflict and ignore the majority of material that has been created for the setting. Material that I love and use in my campaigns and games. Material that the majority of fans base their campaigns and games on too.

I understand what you are saying here, however the reverse is true as well...There are plenty of fans who would LOVE to see pre-EGG stuff used...They have not found any of the products useable since 1992 or so. Just as the old grognards have b@#$%ed for years that the "new" stuff conflicted with their games, now you are doing the same. Perhaps now you can understand where they are coming from. As essentially it's the situation in reverse. Instead of TSR saying EGG Greyhawk is done,we are changing it, and putting out new stuff..now it's the post EGG stuff that is labeled done and changed/reversed (assuming that is indeed what Kenzer does which is speculation at this point).

Personally I'm just glad someone other than WOTC is going to be handling a version of GH, as GH (other than for the LGH campaign) is dead in the water. They can tell me all they want how GH is the default setting for 3E and every "core" book they produce is essentially GH, but I know lip service when I see it.

I like every incarnation of the setting from EGG to Sargent, to Moore and Mona. Having another version is fine with me..Having EGG work on it is even better. The more GH the merrier!

 

[Darius101]

JeffB
Here here .....i agree the more material we have to pull from the better.
Darius

 

[Regdar]

Regdar broke down and bought two Hackmaster Adventures, The Little Keep and the Quest adventures, based off of ColHard's thought that they "make the old adventure's better."

Bah the Col owes Regdar 35 bucks. Feces throwing monkeys!

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Regdar broke down and bought two Hackmaster Adventures, The Little Keep and the Quest adventures, based off of ColHard's thought that they "make the old adventure's better."

Bah the Col owes Regdar 35 bucks. Feces throwing monkeys!

Actually, I didn't say that. Someone else did. I don't think the adventures are better. Different, but not really better. The game is better, but if you don't like old-school stuff, I don't think you should be buying any of it. You won't like it.

EDIT: Actually, Regdar, I find it hard to believe that you'd do anything on my recommendation. Me, of all people. You've made it clear here and elsewhere how much you dislike me.

 

[Regdar]

Actually, I didn't say that. Someone else did. I don't think the adventures are better. Different, but not really better. The game is better, but if you don't like old-school stuff, I don't think you should be buying any of it. You won't like it.

EDIT: Actually, Regdar, I find it hard to believe that you'd do anything on my recommendation. Me, of all people. You've made it clear here and elsewhere how much you dislike me.

Actually Regdar does appreciate the old school stuff, played it for the +20 years, possessing every published article available adventure wise from TSR, with Bone Hill being Regdar's favorite module.

And Colonal, Regdar doesn't dislike you, Regdar may not agree with you or think highly of your stance on certain subjects, but Regdar hasn't said Regdar hates you..

 

[Outlaw]

I said that Little Keep was one of the best modules I've ever played in. I'll stand by that statement as well. Was never fond of older modules. Especially 2e modules. Those were just painful. I've been told I just had bad luck on the 1e modules I played, but it's been so long I honestly don't remember their names (and they didn't belong to me, but the DM whom I'm not friends with any more so I can't go look up which ones we played).

 

[Regdar]

Keep: Minotaur who wants to have sex with you, abducts player character and does damage to character through rough sex.....

Actually it was not you Outlaw, it was Tempertroll

Regarding the modules - I got a copy of "Quest for the Unknown", based on the classic D&D module "Into the Unknown". (Disclaimer: It was received as a free introduction from Kenzer on this very board.) In the TSR module there were several points that were put in with no reason for the occurances. I'll mention a couple without spoiling anything.

The Hackmaster version fills in the blanks and comes up with a cool little soap opera involving Rogahn's mistress; it also makes better use of the cat in the bottle found within the stronghold. It also included suggestions for new DMs, like the original, that would allow further adventures to be based off of this scenario. Naturally, some mentioned how to link it to the Borderlands Keep module but TSR did the same kind of thing.

So the Colonal doesn't owe Regdar 35 bucks, Tempertroll does.