GRIM TALES: Nerfing the Shotgun?
- Thread starter Victim
- Start date
Actually, shotgons ARE quite a bit more devastating than pistols. Realistically, hanguns aren't all that effective as weapons.
The 82% rate of incapacitation for 9mm's is in fact more psychological than due to the power of a 9mm bullet. Most people drop after a single shot from a pistol because they freak out, not becuase they've actually been injured that much. A swing from a baseball bat actually deals more damage than what handguns dish out.
Enraged or intoxicated assailants have proven very difficult to stop with handguns, even when fatally injured (it can take some time to bleed out). The way to physically incapacitate a person with a single pistol shot is with a hit to the central nervous system which is very difficult to do in combat situations. This is acutally modeled decently in d20 Modern with hit points, the critical hit rules and massive damage saves, etc.
Shotgus, by contrast are far more nasty, especially in close quarters. With 00 Buck in a 12-gauge shotgun, you're firing what is essentially a spread of multiple 9mm bullets at once. This means that you don't have to place shots nearly as well to hit something vital, and at close ranges shotguns do much more damage than any pistol.
I agree that the negation of Defense bonuses is a little over the top (perhaps a flat bonus to hit instead), but if anything the damage should either be higher OR the critical threat range should be expanded.
Really, the only real advantage of handguns is portability and concealability. They're great if circumstances don't permit you to carry a real weapon.
The 82% rate of incapacitation for 9mm's is in fact more psychological than due to the power of a 9mm bullet. Most people drop after a single shot from a pistol because they freak out, not becuase they've actually been injured that much. A swing from a baseball bat actually deals more damage than what handguns dish out.
Enraged or intoxicated assailants have proven very difficult to stop with handguns, even when fatally injured (it can take some time to bleed out). The way to physically incapacitate a person with a single pistol shot is with a hit to the central nervous system which is very difficult to do in combat situations. This is acutally modeled decently in d20 Modern with hit points, the critical hit rules and massive damage saves, etc.
Shotgus, by contrast are far more nasty, especially in close quarters. With 00 Buck in a 12-gauge shotgun, you're firing what is essentially a spread of multiple 9mm bullets at once. This means that you don't have to place shots nearly as well to hit something vital, and at close ranges shotguns do much more damage than any pistol.
I agree that the negation of Defense bonuses is a little over the top (perhaps a flat bonus to hit instead), but if anything the damage should either be higher OR the critical threat range should be expanded.
Really, the only real advantage of handguns is portability and concealability. They're great if circumstances don't permit you to carry a real weapon.
AdmundfortGeographer
Getting lost in fantasy maps
This idea is not unheard of in a "Grim" rules version.Strithe said:
Ken Hood's D20 Firearm's rules treated the shotgun as an area attack. That is, like a lightning bolt under 3.x, with Ken Hood's D20 shotgun, everything in a 5 foot wide path takes damage unless they succeed at a Reflex save. His rules also decrease shotgun dice damage for every range increment decrease as Grim Tales' does. They function pretty simlarly this way in that there is very little to do to not get hit... if you are in the swath, look out.
Because shotguns aren't precision weapons these rules also don't let wielders of shotguns apply anything like specialization or sneak attack. Maybe that is a "nerf" you could apply to the Grim Tales' shotgun. For another, maybe also don't allow shotguns to be used with the Marksman, Skip Shot, or Sniper feats.
Hammerhead
Explorer
Wulf Ratbane said:
I'm sorry, but your quote about shotguns beating pistol-wielding martial artists falls flat. Let's say some guy with a sword of all things is sixty feet away from me in an open field with no cover. I have a small firearm and am trained in its use. Common sense tells me that this guy is toast and will eat several bullets before he even gets to me. The rules don't work that way (thank goodness!). This really isn't a question of realism.
And comparing the Shotgun to Alchemist's Fire as the low-level workhorse also falls flat. PCs will likely to continue to use the shotgun to devastating effect, especially on high Dex, high Defense guys (like your typical Fast Hero). Alchemist's Fire is extremely expensive to use at 50 gp a shot for the low level heroes, and quickly becomes pointless as other weapon damage increases. The shotgun suffers from neither of these problems.
Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
Hammerhead said:
I'm not really sure what you're getting at here.
I guess that depends on whether you consider 10 points of damage to be 'devastating' to high-level Fast heroes.
If the shotgun is able to increase its damage to keep pace with the increasing CR of advancing challenges, it's news to me.
Wulf
Rodrigo Istalindir
Explorer
MDT's in Grim Tales serve to keep higher level characters honest. The high-level fast likely has a lower MDT than a Tough (or the same, if the MDT is fixed). The shotgun will remain deadlier to a higher level GT character than alchemists' fire will to a high level D&D character.
Of course, the whole point of Grim Tales is that you're always going to have to think twice before letting someone shoot you with a shotgun. That's a good thing.
Of course, the whole point of Grim Tales is that you're always going to have to think twice before letting someone shoot you with a shotgun. That's a good thing.
Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
Rodrigo Istalindir said:
It is equally true (to frame it in your terms) that a shotgun will remain deadlier to a higher level GT character than a flame strike will to a high level D&D character-- but that still doesn't put a shotgun on the same footing as flame strike.
Wulf
TheAuldGrump
First Post
Hmmm, lethal shotguns are a problem?
In real life shotguns are about the most lethal civilian weapon available, beating out the knife by a fair margin. There was a Challenge Magazine article comparing weapons and their lethality back in the 1990s or so. It ran something like this:
Shotgun
Knife
Rifle
Pistol
The article used statistics from the border patrol. If I remember properly all the folks shot with a shotgun died.
The Auld Grump
In real life shotguns are about the most lethal civilian weapon available, beating out the knife by a fair margin. There was a Challenge Magazine article comparing weapons and their lethality back in the 1990s or so. It ran something like this:
Shotgun
Knife
Rifle
Pistol
The article used statistics from the border patrol. If I remember properly all the folks shot with a shotgun died.
The Auld Grump
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