GRIM TALES: Nerfing the Shotgun?

[Storyteller01]

That's why I'm sticking to the d20 modern rules for shotguns at this time. After all, if you are going for realism, you are already playing the wrong game... a 9mm has an 82% incapacitation rate according to the FBI stats for a body-shot... You aren't going to see that reflected in almost any RPG, especially one that is d20-based.

And the .45 hollow point has a 95% drop ration. Same source, I believe.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

And the .45 hollow point has a 95% drop ration. Same source, I believe.

I suppose it's possible one could assume that all heroes are going to come from that outlying 5%. In other words, a particular firearm may have a 95% drop ratio, but it isn't dropping 95% of PCs, it's dropping 95% of the total population, of which PCs typically make up a much smaller percentage, and almost all of whom are probably aren't dropping from a single shot.

Just another way of looking at the data vis-a-vis the 'realities' of the game world.

 

[HellHound]

And the .45 hollow point has a 95% drop ration. Same source, I believe.

One of us is mis-quoting the source... Either the 9mm is 93% or the .45 is 85%, as the .45 is only a percentage point or two higher up than the 9mm in combat stats according to the FBI reports - but then again, that's generally moot because we usually play heroic RPGs, not true-to-life games where people go donw from a single bullet.

Although I have successfully run those for years also.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I wonder at the definitions. What does "incapacitate" mean"? What does "drop" mean? Does it include "stops fleeing"? What does "body shot" mean? Does body shot count "arm shots" or "leg shots"? I mean, if "body shot" basically means torso and head... well... that leaves out a large portion of the target that can get hit.

I remember hearing that a remarkable proportion of shots hit the legs, often because people shooting often forget to compensate for gravity on the bullet.

 

[HellHound]

I wonder at the definitions. What does "incapacitate" mean"? What does "drop" mean? Does it include "stops fleeing"? What does "body shot" mean? Does body shot count "arm shots" or "leg shots"? I mean, if "body shot" basically means torso and head... well... that leaves out a large portion of the target that can get hit.

I remember hearing that a remarkable proportion of shots hit the legs, often because people shooting often forget to compensate for gravity on the bullet.

Incapacitate, I believe, meant that the target was unable to take further action, including fleeing the scene. Body shots were for torso / centre of mass hits, which s how the FBI rated firearms, but not head hits, nor other extremeties.

for hit locations, I quote an article I wrote in April of 2001:

I used to dislike the hit location table from CP2020 because it balanced shots mostly to the legs... And I worried about tables that give more than a 10% chance of head hits, but it seems most of my worries were misplaced... In the real world at least.

My wife and fellow gamer just got the CDC Surveillance Report for Fatal and Nonfatal Firearm-Related Injuries in the United States for 1993-1998, and decided to pass along the following information.

In assault cases of gunshot wounds the following hit locations were given:

Head / Neck - 14%
Arm / Hand - 13%
Leg / Foot - 33%
Upper Trunk - 21%
Lower Trunk - 16%
Not Specified - 3%

(I hate those shots to the "not specifieds" myself, they sting!)

Statistically Sound D12 Hit Table
Hit table as follows (d12)
1-2: Head
3: Right Arm
4: Left Arm
5-6: Chest
7: Abdomen
8: Nether regions
9-10: Left Leg
11-12: Right Leg

In most gunshot-related assaults, the effect of gravity is basically non-existant, because most shootings occur at near point-blank ranges.

 

[C. Baize]

I suppose it's possible one could assume that all heroes are going to come from that outlying 5%. In other words, a particular firearm may have a 95% drop ratio, but it isn't dropping 95% of PCs, it's dropping 95% of the total population, of which PCs typically make up a much smaller percentage, and almost all of whom are probably aren't dropping from a single shot.

Just another way of looking at the data vis-a-vis the 'realities' of the game world.

That's actually a really good way to look at it.

 

[Victim]

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here.

I believe you were using a "real life" type example to justify the shotgun's owning of Fast Heroes. I was merely creating a similar "real life" example of another situation easily allowable in the Grim Tales rules (not that I think this is a problem or anything) that contrasts with real-life combat.

I guess that depends on whether you consider 10 points of damage to be 'devastating' to high-level Fast heroes.

It's devastating enough, especially when someone unloads 2 or 3 loads of buckshot into you each round or so. I certainly wouldn't volunteer for the experience, and things like Point Blank Shot or Weapon Specialization can increase that damage further.

If the shotgun is able to increase its damage to keep pace with the increasing CR of advancing challenges, it's news to me.

It doesn't keep pace with increasing challenges; however, no other firearm in Grim Tales also keeps pace with increasing challenges except with the usual increases like feats, which the shotgun also benefits from. Characters don't stop using guns because monsters and villains have more hit points, and against anyone with High Dex or a Defense bonus I'd break out the trusty 10 Gauge and let him have it.

My point is that in most "gaming style" combat, which is relatively short-ranged, the shotgun becomes the weapon of choice for just about everyone, especially against human bad guys. Furthermore, it provides a serious disincentive to the Fast Hero when villains are likewise equipped with weapons that negate his greatest strength, an absurd armor class, especially when the Strong Hero wearing the heavy body armor remains mostly protected from the effects of the shotgun.

EDIT: This should have been posted from Hammerhead's account. My bad.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

It's devastating enough, especially when someone unloads 2 or 3 loads of buckshot into you each round or so. I certainly wouldn't volunteer for the experience, and things like Point Blank Shot or Weapon Specialization can increase that damage further.

Oh, well I suppose I should make allowances so that folks can take 2 or 3 loads of buckshot each round.

It doesn't keep pace with increasing challenges; however, no other firearm in Grim Tales also keeps pace with increasing challenges except with the usual increases like feats, which the shotgun also benefits from. Characters don't stop using guns because monsters and villains have more hit points, and against anyone with High Dex or a Defense bonus I'd break out the trusty 10 Gauge and let him have it.

Sounds to me like I did my job just right.

If it happens that the PCs are also inclined to whip out an elephant gun or sniper rifle for 2d12 at long range, I would not be surprised or alarmed.

You do not 'balance' this issue by nerfing shotguns or sniper rifles. Pistols still have their place, and they are 'balanced' primarily by portability, concealability, and legality (which, as it turns out, also 'balances' exotic ammunition like hollow-points, teflon-, or explosive-tipped rounds).

I'm sitting here wondering when you're going to get around to worrying about dynamite and hand grenades...

My point is that in most "gaming style" combat, which is relatively short-ranged, the shotgun becomes the weapon of choice for just about everyone, especially against human bad guys.

That 'gaming style' combat mimics 'real life' combat in this way does not concern me. The shotgun is the weapon of choice for just about anyone engaged in short-range combat. That's just the way it is.

The downside of the shotgun in the game is that same as it is in real life. It has a limited range, limited rate of fire, and limited ammo.

Modern-day assault shotguns address one or more of these defects to devastating effect. God bless the fully-automatic, drum-fed assault shotgun! Is there anything you would rather have in close-quarters fighting?

Of course, folks tend to notice when you walk into the library with a Mossberg.

Furthermore, it provides a serious disincentive to the Fast Hero when villains are likewise equipped with weapons that negate his greatest strength, an absurd armor class, especially when the Strong Hero wearing the heavy body armor remains mostly protected from the effects of the shotgun.

Look, if you want your Fast Heroes to be able to dodge shotgun blasts, knock yourself out. If you're capable of mounting an argument in this thread, you're certainly capable of changing the way shotguns work in your game.

But that's not the sort of thing you should expect from 'baseline' Grim Tales.

The shotgun performs as expected.

 

[HellHound]

Modern-day assault shotguns address one or more of these defects to devastating effect. God bless the fully-automatic, drum-fed assault shotgun! Is there anything you would rather have in close-quarters fighting?

Body Armor. At least then the shot is next to useless.That's where rifles really win over shotguns - body armor designed to handle handgun loads will also stop shot dead, and will barely slow down a rifle bullet.

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Body Armor. At least then the shot is next to useless.That's where rifles really win over shotguns - body armor designed to handle handgun loads will also stop shot dead, and will barely slow down a rifle bullet.

Depends how many pellets hit you in the jugular, of course...