Half-orcs and why people think they are/aren't powerful

BiggusGeekus said:
That being said, I think they deserve a +2 racial bonus to hit points. Half-Orcs having the same number of starting hit points as a halfling of the same class is just silly.

Well, that's not a problem with Half-Orcs, but rather with size. Small size has (realistically) WAY too few penalties.

There should be at least a -4 to -6 penalty to Str and hit points should probably be halved or even quartered. Damage should likewise be halved or quartered, not just reduced by 1 or 2 points.

But that wouldn't work very well in context of the remaining rules. :D

It's completely silly, what small races are capable of physically, in general.

Bye
Thanee
 

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I think it's an excellent analysis.

If I want to create a two-handed-weapon powerhouse fighter, I want the 18 Strength. +1 to hit and +2 damage (relative to 16 Str) is a huge deal at low-to-mid levels. And as CZ has pointed out, straight-up buying an 18 isn't too practical, even with generous (28 or even 32 points) buys.

So despite their lack of interesting racial features, the racial Str bonus makes them teh bomb for the brute fighter in a point-buy party.
 


Thanee said:
Well, that's not a problem with Half-Orcs, but rather with size. Small size has (realistically) WAY too few penalties.

There should be at least a -4 to -6 penalty to Str and hit points should probably be halved or even quartered. Damage should likewise be halved or quartered, not just reduced by 1 or 2 points.

But that wouldn't work very well in context of the remaining rules. :D

It's completely silly, what small races are capable of physically, in general.

Bye
Thanee

You'd probably want more gradations if you wanted to model it more closely. A 3'10" Tallfellow should be capable of a good deal more than a 2'3" Forest Gnome, and a 6'9" Human much stronger than a 4'6" Elf.

As far as Half-Orcs go, the +2 to Strength really is a nice boost; your opponent in a melee fight needs a +2 Dex (+1 AC) and a +2 Con (basically 1 HP per hit, assuming each hit knocks off 1 HD worth of HP) to offset it. Dex and Con have other bonuses (such as saves), but the +2 Str is certainly worth more than either one by itself.
 
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Thanee said:
There should be at least a -4 to -6 penalty to Str and hit points should probably be halved or even quartered. Damage should likewise be halved or quartered, not just reduced by 1 or 2 points.
Flipside: Large races would then have to get the opposite adjustments - +4 to +6 strength, double or quadruple hitpoints, double or quadruple damage.
 

Sejs said:
What's always bugged me about half orcs is how they get their strength, and they get their darkvision, and that's it. No skill mods. No anything else that's even slightly interesting or useful. Just strength and darkvision.


Talk about dull and underdeveloped. Half Orcs are like the wonderbread of the D&D races. Sure, it'll keep you from starving to death, but you've really got to put something else on it if you want to enjoy your meal.
Exactly. Half Orcs aren't so much weak as they are boring. IMO balancing the strength bonus with the penalties to two stats is quite fair, but that's all they get. The lack of change to Half Orcs was one of my greatest disappointemnts with 3.5 (along with retaining the monk/paladin multiclassing rule).

To make them more interesting, I'd give them:
Toughness bonus feat
+3 to Intimidate (which comes out to a net +2 after their Charisma penalty)
+2 to Survival, and +2 on saves against poison and disease. (These guys are hardy, and can eat almost anything!)

That would suit their flavor as "big tough brutes" without overpowering them.
 

I have been using 32 pts-buy for most of the games since the release of 3.0e. And have been in play groups which heavy dungeon crawling. And, never heard of any complain about Half-Orcs from my off-line friends.

*Regarding Dice-Roll vs Point-Buy

It is somewhat true that with Point-Buy rule, one can maximize the effectiveness of racial bonuses and minimize the penalty of racial penalties.

But, regarding Dice-Roll, we must also consider the method of dice-rolling. How many dices do you use to roll one ability (say, roll 4 and take 3, roll 9 and take 3, and such). How many times do you re-roll characters? (Just once, until you get certain total number of ability modifiers, until you get at least one 18, and such). The probability to get higher/lower stats will be drastically changes by method to method.

*Small Race

IMHO, actually, small races are quite weak from power-gaming point of view. They are slow. Low-strength and the smaller weapon damage making it very hard to be a good melee combatants. And -4 penalty for various special attacks really hurts.

I have seen many small combatants, even finesse-type rogues, died because of their small size. Swallowed, tripped, disarmed, and such. Small arcane casters are doing so-so. And actually, Gnome wizards are doing very well. But that seems to be the only "good" combination.

in my play group, Halflings are considered to be the most "weak" core race. They can't be a good melee combatants. As spell-casters, Gnomes are much better (low-light vision and high Con). They suck even as rogues. Slow (harder to take a flanking position), no low-light vision nor dark-vision, and small (bud for melee type rogues)
 

I just remove the charisma penalty from half orcs and replaced it with a circumstance penalty to charisma-based skill checks in some circumstances.

But, really, the main problem with the half orc, IMO, is that they are boring, not useless. Stats-wise, they make nice barbarians, for sure. Not so much fighters, though, since I like to have Expertise when I play a fighter.

Pax said:
Flipside: Large races would then have to get the opposite adjustments - +4 to +6 strength, double or quadruple hitpoints, double or quadruple damage.

Which they do. Just compare the average ogre with a 1st level human with average stats for a moment. :)
 
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HeavyG said:
Which they do. Just compare the average ogre with a 1st level human with average stats for a moment. :)
The strength yes. The 2x or 4x damage, no. And the 2x or 4x hitpoints, also no. ^_^ And thank god for that!

Mind you, an Ogre with no other class levels is a SIXTH level character (4HD, +2 LA ... ECL 6), so it should be compared to a sixth level human, not a first level human.
 
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Cyberzombie said:
On this board and others, there have been a number of fights over half-orcs, with some people violently proclaiming them wonderful or even over-powered, and others proclaiming them weak and useless, with very few people (at least amongst those who post) anywhere in the middle.

Now, the usual explenation of why people have such opposite opinions is playing style. If you dungeon crawl, half-orcs are great; if you do city-based adventures with lots of diplomacy, they suck. I've never found this explenation satisfactory. I'm a power-gamer, sometimes a munchkin, and I would *never* play a half-orc.

I think I've found the real explenation, though. After many an argument, it suddenly occured to me that there was a real difference between the two camps of half-orc haters and half-orc likers: how they generate ability scores.

If you create characters by point buy, the half-orcs bonus is more important than its penalties. The system is skewed in such a way that it's almost impossible, even under the most generous allotment of points, to start out with an ability score of 18. Even a 16 is very high. Thus, the +2 Str bonus of the half-orc is very, very attractive. You can buy a Str of 16 and get it up to 18 -- which is about the only way you'll have a starting character with a Str score that high.

On the other end, even with two penalties, the half-orc isn't that weakened. The absolute worst Int and Cha scores you can have is 6. Buying a score up to 12 only costs 4 points each, so for 8 points you can have no penalties whatsover. Or you can just spend 4 to remove the Int penalty. While it does eat up some points to compensate, it's not that bad.

However, if you create characters with dice rolling, scores of 18 are not uncommon. Let's face it: if you're rolling dice to generate ability scores, it's highly likely that you're not just going to roll 4d6 six times. You're probably going to do that several times until you get a "decent" character -- and you're probably not cheating, either. Your DM is highly likely to be going along with you. For dice-rolled characters, scores of 18 are not all that uncommon. It's kind of expected, really. So getting an 18 Str score is really not all that special. And, while it's kind of nice to have a 20 Str, it doesn't mean as much under this system. It's not nearly as hard to get or as special.

The flip side of dice rolling is that your minimum scores are 3, not 6, which is a HUGE difference. If you roll up a character that is 18 18 15 14 6 4, you're probably going to keep it. But those penalties are going to really, really, really hurt now. You won't just be somewhat dumb and uncharismatic -- you're utterly hopeless. You can compensate for one penalty, but two is much tougher.

So that, I think, is why some people think half-orcs are fine, and others think they suck. If you use the official character generation method, their penalties outweigh their benefits. If you use the optional non-standard method, their bonus outweighs even two penalties.

So. What do y'all think of my analysis?

While I think your analysis is sound, I think there is a more important point to bring up. The designers indicate that a Strength bonus is better than other bonuses. This is true for warrior types, which the Half-Orc excels at, but the bonus from Strength is almost negligibly affective if the character is a Sorcerer/Wizard/Bard/Rogue. Their penalties really make them suffer in those classes, while their bonus just doesn't cut it. As a barbarian, the +2 Str is good enough to offset the penalties.

I wish there were an easy way to rectify this (i.e. Half-orc Sorcerers can cut one of their penalties due to the fact that they will not use their strength.), but with the free multiclassing system, there isn't anything I can think of.
 

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