Hard Stat Cap of 18?

[Remathilis]

http://www.enworld.org/forum/news/3...ing-skills-ability-scores-14.html#post5802061

Emphasis mine.

So basically, your ability scores can't go over 18 under basic circumstances, even with racial and class bonuses.

That's my read of this.

My theory is 18 is the hard cap for starting scores, but race/class might bump it a bit higher. I mean even in AD&D a half-orc could get a str of 19 or a halfling a dex of 19. I have no problem with a hard cap of 20 (18 before race/class bump). I'm also fine with NO ability bumps over level.

The fact my elf rogue began with an 18 and ended with a 26+ dex (with bumps and magic) made me feel like that 18 was only a base, and a 16 or 14 would be downright pitiful. Deflating scores is a good goal to aim for...

 

[KarinsDad]

It also depends on what an 18 represents.

Is an 18 human perfection?

Or is an 18 Hercules level Strength or Gandalf level Intelligence (i.e. typically considered above human max)?

Without knowing what the numbers represent, it's difficult to pin this down as good or bad.


It's also unknown if PCs will have the ability to go to Avatar god-like levels of ability or power in 5E. That's the area where the game tends to break down the most, so maybe it won't be exactly like this in 5E.

 

[Stalker0]

Is this necessary? Stats have natural caps as it is. You can't have higher than X from character creation and you can never get more than Y from level increase for a total of Z.

If they include magic item bumps to stats again then it could be a factor.

Mechanically, the idea encourages generalization. At 1st level, I might want to be the fighter with the 18 strength. But then I get the option of gauntlets of ogre power or gloves of dex from a treasure chest.

Without a cap, you would likely take the gauntlets, as more strength = more good. But with a cap, the gautlets do little for you, so you would rather boost another stat.

 

[Hassassin]

If they include magic item bumps to stats again then it could be a factor.

It's the same with level-based ability increases.

I'm for a cap, because it means those who rolled lower will catch up with their main ability, it encourages generalization, and the numbers are smaller.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Along with hit point deflation, I welcome ability score deflation.

 

[Minigiant]

My theory is 18 is the hard cap for starting scores, but race/class might bump it a bit higher. I mean even in AD&D a half-orc could get a str of 19 or a halfling a dex of 19. I have no problem with a hard cap of 20 (18 before race/class bump). I'm also fine with NO ability bumps over level.

Yeah, by the way I read that is since each class bumps their primary ability, races boosting ability too, and a low cap; starting with 16s will be easy and okay. This is especially true if the boosts are +2 instead of +1 or the cap is reachable by the first level-based ability boost.

I'm okay with a cap of 20. Then the gauntlet of ogre power would boost the Str cap humanoid to the Strength of an Orge (21-22) and the belt of giant's strength boosts to hill giant strength.

 

[Kaodi]

I suppose you could read it as 18 being the cap. I think the other likely possibility is perhaps that the cap is more like 20, and you do get additional bonuses from levelling up or something.

The one thing that makes me kind of suspicious of this cap thing (or perhaps just the quote itself) is that they basically suggest that racial modifiers get you closer to the cap, which would mean that every race has the same cap, which would just suck. Racial modifers should adjust the cap in some way, unless they have come up with some brilliant method of determining why a halfling and a half-orc can both have an 18 str and the half-orc still be the clear winner in contests of strength.

 

[mach1.9pants]

And to make the 18s seem impressive and lower scores more than adequate they need to (IMO)
1. Have the diminishing returns above 15 or so
2. Make point buying high more expensive than currently
3. give 'real world' examples of scores like they used to, if you know an 18 str is as strong as the IRL Worlds Strongest Man then you are going to be happy to have it and exstatic for a 19 or 20 with a bit of levelling and magic.

 

[GM Dave]

A couple of things to think on;

1> The designers announced that all six stats are now going to be used as the basis for saving throws. This is going to likely push players to have more rounded characters.

This could even become a double edged sword if they allowed attribute trading (2 str for 1 int) like they did in the earlier editions with the random roll. A character could push for a high attribute but leave themselves vulnerable to saves in another attribute.

2> The designers announced in art that they want to move away from the superhuman image of adventures. Art usually leads and/or follows design (this case I think it is following). Racial bonuses are announced as +1 and class bonuses as +1 which is down from 3e and 4e style of thinking.

You are also getting more for your +1 from the sounds of it. The designers seemed to hint that they didn't want the math of [stat -10]/2 to determine the amount of bonus and just go direct to the bonus; so an 18 is not +4 to skills but is an 18 with skill modifying it (like 2e skills).

3> This could suggest a return to something like the 25 being the 'God' limit from 2e and earlier.

Then again, if you are attempting a save against say Con and you need to roll your stat or less on d20 then you are already 90% likely to succeed with an 18 Con where as a 26 Con in 3e/4e only gave you a +13 modifier to your roll.

The opposite is that a 7 in, say, Dex is going to really be awful. You have a 35% of making all those dodge saves where you would have only had a -3 to the roll (which rapidly gets reduced in problem by level bonuses).

4> Something like Gauntlets or Girdles could return as the this item gives you X stat (like 18 str with Gauntlets of Ogre power).

5> In the end this is a design decision. I'm not really pro or con on this. I've done DnD with both variations. I think that the Cap limit system is the easier and avoids many of the bloat issues that occurred from multiple stacking which occurred in 3e and some in 4e.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

I have a hard time seeing a cap as a good thing.

I have a hard time seeing a cap as a bad thing...

Cheers,