Harniacs vs. d20/D&D players

[LostSoul]

Maybe it's a good thing that D&D can be played like a video game. You don't have to play it that way, but you can if you want.

 

[Bonedagger]

Funny. And here I thought that a gamesystem is just a tool and not a "religion".... Maybe I just don't care enough about what other people think.

 

[Psion]

Video mentality is not what I think of when I see/read (not play...) D&D. I see more heroic campaigns and gaming that no doubt is fun for those who use it. But as I recall with all of the d20 mods and stuff out there this system could be used for any setting and type of gaming. That is probably what is so strong about its popularity. But I digress. HârnMaster is for me the ultimate system but I do not want to barge in here stroking my book and look slanderous at those who enjoy D&D. There is room for all kinds of games.

Well, it sounds to me as if you have a more objective veiw of the game than KK does and like you aren't here trying to assert some pretentious superiority, so I really have no beef with you.

 

[Psion]

b. How everything is over the top high fantasy hack-n-slash, never any other type! Other styles of play are (barely) mentioned in the DMG,

So, let's look at your supposed evidence here. You admit that the sections that I speak of exist... but you feel the neeed to assign weighting to that. Hmmm... shows how objective your evidence is.

but only mindless high fantasy hack-n-slash is officially supported, and this style is further supported by much of the output of the various third party publishers.

Oh really,

You mean third party publishers like Monkey God -- they're all hack-n-slash, right? Oh wait... except for the exceptional backstory and deep and interesting character motivation in Song of Storms. Or the interesting and humorous investagative roleplaying in All the Kings Men. Another publisher, they're just a fluke right. Okay, how about Auran, with their very interesting and deep Dark Awakenings: Guardian... which I trust I don't have to tell you about since it was being discussed over on the Harn board.

Not good enough? Well, lets shift from the "role playing" note to the "realism" note since that seems to be your other harping point. Let me tell you about Kalamar, which its fans love to extoll the virtues of, how it excels in depth and realism compared to other settings. I leave it to the fans of the respective system which setting succeeds more.

c. How they have drastically sped up leveling, level benefits,

So. This demonstrates what, exactly? Leveling was adjusted to a level that the designers felt most of the audience wants. If you don't want it that fast, you can use any of the OFFICIALLY SUPPORTED alternates in the DMG.

and made it practically impossible to play without multiclassing or prestige classing! I call this "morphing" and this is exactly what happens to heroes in many popular video games.

Funny, in my current campaign, ran over the space of 2 years:

Number of prestige classes: 1
Number of other multiclassed characters: 0

So much for impossible!

 

[Psion]

There are a lot of terms and concepts that never see the light of day in D&D, because D&D does not concern itself with how a realistic "sword & sorcery" society would operate.

That's because D&D is a game system, not a setting.

Further, and more importantly, even if your GM ignores many of the finer points of sociology, it does not equal a "video game" mentality. You are creating a false dichotomy. You can have a game that is deep and rich with roleplaying and investigation and totally not hack-n-slash and still not make the game into a sociology report. Because for a lot of people, sociology reports aren't fun -- they're work.

 

[Tsyr]

Rolemaster has a primary market focus of college-adults, generally 24-and up. I've played Rolemaster for some ten years, and as a personal observation, I can't say that I have ever met anyone who plays Rolemaster who is younger than 22, and quite educated.

*Tsyr raises his hand*

I first played Rolemaster when I was 17. I would like to consider myself well educated though, even at 17. I spell worse than a five year old at times, a quirk I have never quite understood or managed to remedy, but beyond that...

I was going to enter this conversation, having enjoyed a few Harn products but not being a devotee of the setting as a whole... But when a person as much as says (paraphrasing here) "DnD is diablo II in pen and paper form, and anyone who says otherwise is either lieing or doesn't know what they are talking about", I figure there isn't much common ground we could hope to build from in a discussion.

 

[Patrick-S&S]

Okay, how about Auran, with their very interesting and deep Dark Awakenings: Guardian... which I trust I don't have to tell you about since it was being discussed over on the Harn board.

An excellent adventure if there ever was one. However Auran did do one adventure for Hârn as well before Guardian and Shadowlands, so there is bound to be some influences from the Hârn settings, especially since Guardian was intended to be a Hârn adventure from the start. From what I understand the people at Auran are Hârnfans but that is not really the point. I think that a few people on these boards do not really recognize Hârn as a compatible setting with the D&D rules.

Nothing could be more from the truth I can assure you. Sure you would need a few guides and such, but that is expected, and you would probably have to change the tone of your game a little. But other than that there is nothing wrong with combining the two. In fact I am advocating that you should. If you are interested, flames aside, please have a visit at either my site (link below) or harnlink.com. You would find that there is a whole new world there without having to change from your D&D rules.

Oh, and BTW Psion, the reason I wrote that Hârn was written with a more "evolved" English, is because the old geezer who wrote it from the start is a professor in medieval history and mythology, and he didn't bother to express himself in a more regular English style. If that is good or bad is up to the beholder, but for the historicans and those looking for a different game, it is a dream. Not everybody's dream but at least a handful.

 

[Falstaff]

Here is an example of the kind of posts over at HarnForum (this is from a topic about what should be added into a 'newbie' section):

"I'd add lists of books, music etc that people have recommended (Though Andy Staples will have to go through the music lists to check for authenticity, and I'll have to go through the literature one to make sure none of thar crappy fantasy bollocks gets through... ) and a decent list of sites, or at least a link to whatsisname's harnlink list.

Oh, and one that explains how D20 is crap compared to HM.

Nick the Lemming"

 

[TruffleGrubber]

That was taken out of context Falstaff and given the tone of the thread Nick was most assuredly joking, considering the emoticon he used after the statement. Here is a link to the thread: Scrolls of the Apprentices for those intrested in seeing these statements in context.

 

[NickTheLemming]

Here is an example of the kind of posts over at HarnForum (this is from a topic about what should be added into a 'newbie' section):

"I'd add lists of books, music etc that people have recommended (Though Andy Staples will have to go through the music lists to check for authenticity, and I'll have to go through the literature one to make sure none of thar crappy fantasy bollocks gets through... ) and a decent list of sites, or at least a link to whatsisname's harnlink list.

Oh, and one that explains how D20 is crap compared to HM.

Nick the Lemming"

It's quite different when you take out all the smileys, isn't it Falstaff? As Trufflegrubber says, if anyone is even remotely interested, then they can follow the link he provides and see the message *with* smileys, and in context of the thread itself. Perhaps if Falstaff wants to quote me, he can quote those messages where I've helped out Agrikan Fury on his (gasp!) D20 / Cthulhu version of Harn, or perhaps from this message:

"I mentioned in the other thread that at leasta linkbe made to the Harnlink page, if not to as many sites themselves in the newbie forum, and I would heartily include any D20 in Harn links there too. "

But then that would suggest that people on the harn forum dislike Falstaff because he's pro-D20, whereas in fact it's because he's a troll.

And to the fine people here at Enworld, I don't intend to hang around here, so don't worry that Falstaff will start barging into all sorts of threads as he did on the Harnforum to attack me, even in reply to a message where I ageed with him...

Nick the Lemming