Harpoon: delusions of grandeur or DM nightmare

[irdeggman]

Harpoon Rules Issues:

• The harpoon is a ranged weapon, not a melee weapon. There is a penalty to hit while in melee.

• 
  
  
  Where is this from? The part about a penalty to use it in melee.
  
  That was why I used the javelin as a comparison, in fact an arrow (or bolt) can also be used for comparison. They all talk about how to use them in melee. The harpoon's text description has no such allowance. (Not in Frostburn context anyway).
  
  Now, I do think it should follow the javelin use more closely but if the player is trying to use the rules to his advantage then the rules should be used as written to coutner this - and in this case they do not allow a harpoon to be used in melee.
  
  A sling can't be used as a melee weapon, neither can a normal bow (an elvencraft one can but that is a "special" weapon).
  
  A sling stone can't be used in melee, an arrow or bolt can.

 

[Arkhandus]

Because improvised weapons incur a -4 penalty to hit.

 

[FoxWander]

Hey everyone, I'm in this game as well so I appreciate all the replies/advice so far. Just to clarify though- I am NOT the harpoon wielding character. I just want to make the game fair for all of us players. I'd like to find a way for my friend to use his "harpoon build" that doesn't- 1) over-shadow the rest of us, 2) force the DM to use too powerful monsters that can withstand his attacks but will be too much for the rest of us to handle and 3) still lets the Harpooner use his character without feeling like he's been completely nerfed.

On the second round, did he do the same amount of damage he made with the Powerful Charge/PA/Blades of Blood? It might be RAW, but that's something I'd house rule out. Removing the harpoon should do base harpoon damage, maybe plus strength, but shouldn't let you get double the effect for the spells and feats you used last round.

Until we paused the game to discuss how broken this use of the harpoon is, yes he was doing all the damage from the first attack. But we fixed that- Blades of Blood gets discharged with the first attack and you can't PA/Powerful Charge on a Heal check (which, by RAW, is what removing the harpoon is). I'm also thinking that the damage from Blades of Blood shouldn't count on the reflex save to avoid getting the harpoon stuck.

As was mentioned in the OP and later, the closest analogy for using the harpoon in melee is the javelin. But while the javelin specifically says it is "not designed for melee" and imposes a -4 to hit as a melee weapon, the harpoon doesn't have that exception. It's whole description does deal solely with ranged attacks though, so adding the same rule as the javelin seems pretty reasonable.

Nail brings up a good point about using the harpoon in melee not matching it's ranged use description so the "lodging" effect wouldn't apply. But, while that's a valid RAW way of avoiding the issue, it doesn't make much logical sense. Stabbing two-handed with a harpoon in melee (regardless of a -4 penalty to hit) will certainly hit harder than throwing it one-handed, which is why the 150% damage for two-handed weapons would apply. So how could a harder hit with a harpoon not lodge while a ranged hit would? It makes a lot more sense to simply say a hit is a hit and the lodging effect applies regardless (no matter how complicated that makes adjudicating the rest of the weapon's effects )

So here's a proposal of how to deal with using a harpoon as a melee weapon:
1) It's not designed for melee so it imposes a -4 penalty to hit
2) If it deals damage there's a chance it is lodged in the target- reflex save DC10 + harpoon damage (BoB doesn't could but PA & PC would) to avoid.
3) Once lodged there is an opposed strength check to keep control of it. If the wielder is trying to keep control of the weapon then he doesn't threaten since his weapon is occupied, unless he has Quick Draw and another weapon (or something similar) and opts to let go of the harpoon to make an AoO.
4) If you loose control of the harpoon (whether by failing the STR check of voluntarily letting go for some reason) you can try to grab it again- this would be resolved as a disarm attempt.
5) If you have control of a lodged harpoon you can take a full round action to rip it out. This is a full round attack and does not provoke AoO. (The RAW say it's a Heal check but that's to remove it without doing extra damage, if you don't care about that then it should still be a full round action but not one that distracts you enough for AoO) Ripping a harpoon out like this does damage equal to the original attack but for the weapon + STR only. (No PA/PC or extra spell effects)

There- how does that sound? At least it's simpler than grappling. But seriously, I think that covers most of the differences from ranged use to melee use. And it's not completely devastating to the target of the attack. But does it make the harpoon fair to use? Or is it broken beyond repair even before this patch?

 

[Kmart Kommando]

For number 5, have it do normal damage, and by normal damage, I mean, roll the base dice of damage and add nothing to it. It's the weapon itself doing the secondary damage, not the strength of the guy pulling it out.

 

[green slime]

I've had a player moan on months, trying to get me to allow the harpoon into the game. The harpoon as described is a monstrosity, far worse IMO, than the much maligned spiked chain.

A plain no comes in handy. As does other players willing to pelt the abberant player with copious amounts of polyhedrons until they realise it is an issue that can't be won, at least until the next session, when they try to get brought up again.

Secondly, there weren't any north-dwelling seal & whale hunting communities anywhere near where his character was (Irongate). So one blow for versimilitude

Thirdly, doesn't anyone consider why such a cumbersome weapon was never used in warfare? Why on Earth did WotC consider that they needed to add som new kewl l33t weaponz? Why not design a weapon that would actually fulfill its historical role and not attract a gamut of power gamers? They succeeded with the net... Meet many players whose characters wield nets?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Stabbing two-handed with a harpoon in melee (regardless of a -4 penalty to hit) will certainly hit harder than throwing it one-handed, which is why the 150% damage for two-handed weapons would apply.

I disagree with this assumption. You can get your whole body behind throwing a big weapon, just like you can with a two handed weapon.

I think in this situation I would treat a harpoon used in melee as a -4 to hit longspear. I'd only make the harpoon barbs count if thrown.

But to tell the truth, I wouldn't use this harpoon anyway, as it sounds like a flaky rules mechanism to me. Next thing you'll have players asking to put barbs on all their arrows... but do arrows stick into someone when they hit?

It seems to me that a harpoon which is more in the spirit of the 'hit points' side of the game would be an exotic javelin which causes an 'entangled' penalty on anyone that it hits, because it tends to get lodged in.


Cheers

 

[Maldor]

Thirdly, doesn't anyone consider why such a cumbersome weapon was never used in warfare? Why on Earth did WotC consider that they needed to add som new kewl l33t weaponz? Why not design a weapon that would actually fulfill its historical role and not attract a gamut of power gamers?

it was made for whaling and whaling was not really around intill after guns were invented thats and the diffeculty of useing it right would have made it a poor choice for a army
but D&D worlds are much older then real life earth we have only been writeing about 6000 years while most D&D worlds have been writing of over 10000 year i think much of there tech was never invented becuase magic filled the need.

 

[irdeggman]

Because improvised weapons incur a -4 penalty to hit.

Correct on the "to hit penalty" but can the weapon be used to casue damage in melee?

Can you apply this to a sling being used in melee?

A bow?

A crossbow?

"ranged" weapons that can do damage in melee specifically say so.



SRD:

Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Arrows: An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier x2). Arrows come in a leather quiver that holds 20 arrows. An arrow that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Bolts: A crossbow bolt used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (crit x2). Bolts come in a wooden case that holds 10 bolts (or 5, for a repeating crossbow). A bolt that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Bullets, Sling: Bullets come in a leather pouch that holds 10 bullets. A bullet that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Longbow: You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a longbow. If you have a bonus for high Strength, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow (see below) but not a regular longbow.

Races of the Wild pg 166

"Bow, elvencraft: One of the biggest problems facing any archer is deciding what to do when a foe gets within melee reach. Does one stand fast and take the consequences (which can prove painful if not deadly(, fall back (not always practical), or drop the bow and draw a melee weapon (incoonvenient at best). Elf bowers have made the choice somewhat less difficult by crafting bows that can stand up to melee combat.. ..

An elvencraft shortbow functions as a club when wielded as a melee weapon. An elvencraft longbow functions as a quarterstaff when wielded as a melee weapon. The wielder incurs no penalty on attack rolls when using an elvencraft bow as a melee weapon."

It goes on to tak about enhancements to an elvencraft bow are either for the "ranged" weapon or the "melee" weapon function but not both.

In essence if you are using a weapon for other than its intended purpose it no longer functions the same way (hence none of that extra damage from a harpoon should be applied regardless of whether or not the DM rules it can be used as a melee weapon, improvised (i.e. -4 attack penalty))

 

[green slime]

Thirdly, doesn't anyone consider why such a cumbersome weapon was never used in warfare? Why on Earth did WotC consider that they needed to add som new kewl l33t weaponz? Why not design a weapon that would actually fulfill its historical role and not attract a gamut of power gamers?

it was made for whaling and whaling was not really around intill after guns were invented thats and the diffeculty of useing it right would have made it a poor choice for a army
but D&D worlds are much older then real life earth we have only been writeing about 6000 years while most D&D worlds have been writing of over 10000 year i think much of there tech was never invented becuase magic filled the need.

Incorrect: the inuit had been hunting whales for millenia.

Also, from wikipedia's Harpoon entry:
"The Greek historian Polybius (ca 203 BC-120 BC), in his Histories, describes hunting for swordfish by using a harpoon with a barbed and detachable head."

But the reason for abandoning the harpoon as a DnD weapon is the rediculous mechanics they put in place: it completely swept aside the reasoning behind hit points.

Suddenly you have weapon which cannot be described as a having a glancing blow, but is instead stuck in the target, and yet there are no greater consequences for pulling it out than "merely" more hit point damage.

It absolutely shatters versimilitude at the table, IMO.

The reason it was never seen in battle, is that it is extremely impractical outside of the purpose for what it was designed: hunting big water game, and preventing that game from escaping into the depths. What possible reason would you have to actually want to reel in a dead human foe? Perhaps if you were a cannabilistic tribe under a siege.... Sounds like a rather limited use there.

What gain is there to reeling in a thrown harpoon, when compared to spears and bows?

The entire idea of "heroic" PCs wandering around armed with harpoons is so st00p1d, I'd really like to... Well, its not granny friendly.

If difficulty in "useing it right", were really the problem, it wouldn't be a problem: the English Longbow required years of training to attain proficiency, yet was used. The problem is, in the martial context, the harpoon has no gain compared to other, similar, conventional weapons (spear, javelin), but instead has huge drawbacks: more difficult to manufacture, more expensive, extra weight (rope), slower, and therefore can't be thrown as far.

 

[FoxWander]

I disagree with this assumption. You can get your whole body behind throwing a big weapon, just like you can with a two handed weapon.

I agree with you- but that's why you add STR to damage with thrown weapons, but you don't get STR and a half like you do with a two-handed weapon. I only mentioned using a weapon two-handed as hitting "harder" due to the lack of verisimilitude from folks saying a harpoon can lodge in your opponent as a ranged weapon but not as a melee weapon.

But to tell the truth, I wouldn't use this harpoon anyway, as it sounds like a flaky rules mechanism to me. Next thing you'll have players asking to put barbs on all their arrows... but do arrows stick into someone when they hit?

It seems to me that a harpoon which is more in the spirit of the 'hit points' side of the game would be an exotic javelin which causes an 'entangled' penalty on anyone that it hits, because it tends to get lodged in.

I also would agree with this. The harpoon seems like a pure cheese weapon made for powergamers. Adding the effects of barbed weapons to the game is just asking for trouble (hence this post). As for giving the harpoon an 'entangling' effect- while this might be simpler, since it's an existing game mechanic, entangling is actually worse than the effects of a stuck harpoon since entangling adds to hit and DEX penalties. Now, if we got rid of the possibility for extra damage when removing a stuck harpoon (which is the heart of the cheesiness IMO) and replaced the existing 'stuck harpoon' effects with normal 'entangled' effects, then this whole post wouldn't be necessary and the harpoon might be a reasonable exotic weapon. Then it's cheese would just be that it's a "net" which does 1d10 damage and doesn't have to be refolded to reuse.