Harpoon: delusions of grandeur or DM nightmare

[Meeki]

Toss this weapon in the trash and redesign it. Who the heck uses a 10lb throwing weapon? Mechanically this weapon doesn't make sense. Why would you both be able to control someone connected to the harpoon with an opposed str check AND be able to rip it out as a full round action. Don't you think that trying to control the harpoon with a strength check would rip it out anyways? I don't really see a difference you are pulling on it as a full round action either way.

Isn't the point of a barbed anything is to have it stick in the opponent without coming unlodged in order to annoy the heck out of something and gimp its ability to move. Barbed spears, which this essentially is, used for hunting are meant to stick in the prey to impede their movement and agility not be ripped out to do extra damage. I would say redesign it to allow for an opposed strength check so someone cannot move out of a certain range depending on rope length and maybe reduce movement/ dex penalty. Somehow I believe that hitting a human with a 10lb barbed spear would really stick very well anyways but this is just speculation.

 

[Nail]

Nail brings up a good point about using the harpoon in melee not matching it's ranged use description so the "lodging" effect wouldn't apply. But, while that's a valid RAW way of avoiding the issue, it doesn't make much logical sense.

<chuckles>....the player is using the letter (rather than the intent) of the rules to gain an advantage. Why should DM's reading the rules be treated differently???

"Logic" (in the sense of "realism") has got nothin' to do with it.

As an improvised weapon, the harpoon does not work as it was designed for: a missile weapon. The "lodging" property doesn't work is the harpoon is used in some other way....like melee.

 

[Nail]

Try explaining it to the Player in another way:

"Congratulations! You've found a broken rule. Good job! They're so rare for us nowadays.

......Now it's time for us to fix this rule. Here's the fix: the damage of a harpoon is reduced to 1d6 (like a javelin), and you can't use the 'lodging' property while in melee."

 

[werk]

My vote goes to delusions of something...

my favorite is this:

I'd like to find a way for my friend to use his "harpoon build" that doesn't- 1) over-shadow the rest of us, 2) force the DM to use too powerful monsters that can withstand his attacks but will be too much for the rest of us to handle and 3) still lets the Harpooner use his character without feeling like he's been completely nerfed.

Why?

He is obviously going out of his way to do exactly those things, regardless of the rest of the party or their desires. Why encourage him?

Just say no (there are too many obvious DM excuses for not allowing the harpoon at all to list here), and tell him to try playing with the rest of the party, rather than near them.

...and call him harpoon boy from now on. Possibly Ahab.

 

[Fenris]

So the secondary damage is when you pull the harpoon out? On the characters next action?

I would solve the problem with a simple sunder.

Ahab stabs the beastie, the harpoon is stuck. Beastie's turn, beastie sunders the harpoon ( 5 hardness, 10 HP for a generous 2H hafted weapon). AoO you say, with what weapon, Ahab's weapon is stuck in the beastie, you can't use it to attack on the AoO. Once the weapon is broken, Ahab's character will realize the downside of any weapon designed to stay stuck in a body. Which is why harpoons and other barbed weapons weren't use in warfare, you lost your weapon too often.

 

[Drowbane]

<snip>I would solve the problem with a simple sunder.

Ahab stabs the beastie, the harpoon is stuck. Beastie's turn, beastie sunders the harpoon ( 5 hardness, 10 HP for a generous 2H hafted weapon). AoO you say, with what weapon, Ahab's weapon is stuck in the beastie, you can't use it to attack on the AoO. Once the weapon is broken, Ahab's character will realize the downside of any weapon designed to stay stuck in a body. Which is why harpoons and other barbed weapons weren't use in warfare, you lost your weapon too often.

The only sensible fix I noted in this thread.

* Its not a pointless nerf
* it is not "counter-rules-lawyering"
* it is not childish insults to the Harpooner.

Good job.

 

[avr]

But to tell the truth, I wouldn't use this harpoon anyway, as it sounds like a flaky rules mechanism to me. Next thing you'll have players asking to put barbs on all their arrows... but do arrows stick into someone when they hit?

It seems to me that a harpoon which is more in the spirit of the 'hit points' side of the game would be an exotic javelin which causes an 'entangled' penalty on anyone that it hits, because it tends to get lodged in. Cheers

I agree with this one, except that a harpoon could just as easily be based off a normal spear as a javelin. Using Sunder to mitigate the effects just puts off the problem until the player finds another way around that (adamantine-hafted harpoons?)

 

[Zurai]

You don't even need a sunder.

So the DC of the Reflex save is 10 + damage dealt to avoid having it lodged? That sounds to me like the intent of the rule is that it tends to lodge really deeply the harder it hits.

Solution? The Strength DC to pull it back out is 10 + damage dealt. After all, it lodged in there REALLY deep when you diving power attack super-charged the big nasty. You're not going to get it back out again without a lot of tugging.

 

[Elephant]

IMO the problem isn't the harpoon or its questionable mechanics. The problem isn't the combination of feats, equipment, and spells that this character is using.

The problem is that one player seems to want extra toys to play with that his playmates don't get. It's a social issue, not a rules issue.

 

[VirgilCaine]

I have no idea why you wouldn't be able to pull the harpoon out for more damage if you're trying to lodge it in the enemy and leave it there...or have an ally make a strength check to pull it out once you've hit with it, if you're using the trailing rope.

Of course, you wouldn't get any secondary damage bonuses when it comes out.