Has 3E become too much like 2E yet?

[Blackwind]

Core rules only. It works with all editions of D&D. The existance of a supplemental/optional rule book does not affect my game in the least. It would not affect your game either, if you did not take action to bring it in.

Complaining about supplemental/optional rule books hurting your D&D game is like complaining that McDonalds is making you fat. If you don't turn into the parking lot, if you don't order the Big Mac, if you don't eat it, it won't make you fat.

Quasqueton

Nevertheless, it's hard not to feel some resentment for a company that uses shiny Disney-toys to tempt your kids into eating their toxic sludgeburgers. It's hard, you know, when the kids keep nagging you to take them to Mickey D's and you have to explain to them that those Happy Meals that look so good on TV are basically poisonous and will make them fat.

 

[papastebu]

I played 1st edition as a child, but the largest amount of my actual gaming has been done in second edition AD&D, as well as some other systems that I won't go into. Back when I was playing the 2e stuff, my friends and I would always tweak the rules, until there wasn't anything like the original ruleset left in them. Every time something new came out, one of us would get it, and we'd all have a field-day tearing it down and rebuilding it.

I got two of my favorite hobbies out of all that tinkering: the tinkering itself, and the game-book collecting.

I hope they never quit making new stuff, because then I won't be able to play anymore. At 38 years of age it's hard for me to find anyone who likes gaming and also shares the outlook of a person my age, so the game has become largely a mental exercise for me. I also live in the sticks, so general human contact is rare, also.

The game's still loads of fun, though, and I'm sure eventually I'll get to actually play and--dare I hope?--maybe even run a game again. When it happens, I'll be ready, mutant house-rules in hand.

 

[JoeGKushner]

They had to pry 2nd ed out of my hands.

I was using a lot of Role Aids books like Blood and Steel, Sentinels, Demons, etc... along with Skills and Powers and other bits including a lot of 1st edition material.

3rd ed seems to have a lot going for it but the new format and focus on adventurers in '07 is not my style.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Nevertheless, it's hard not to feel some resentment for a company that uses shiny Disney-toys to tempt your kids into eating their toxic sludgeburgers. It's hard, you know, when the kids keep nagging you to take them to Mickey D's and you have to explain to them that those Happy Meals that look so good on TV are basically poisonous and will make them fat.

Speaking as someone who *consistently* drops 10-15 pounds in two months when he eats mostly fast food rather than mostly home-cooked or, -gulp- sit-down restaurant food on a regular basis, I find this downright laughable. The food at McDonald's may not be terribly healthy, but the portions are about a third of what you would get at a sit-down restaurant; because of the way food is packaged in grocery stores, you face a similar situation there if you're buying for 2-3 people.

Anyway, my biggest problems with 2e were inherent to the core rules, specifically to the poor fit of the AD&D mechanics to the kind of game 2e seemed to want to be. I like the kind of game 2e seemed to want to be. It made for some wonderful settings, produced some great sessions/stories, and the basis for the kind of electronic games I prefer to tabletop RPGs (specifically, JRPGs); but, the AD&D rules were pretty much antithetical to that style of play. When 3e launched with its back to the dungeon, 1e style with modern rules flavor, it was a breath of fresh air because the game was actually designed to meet its design goals.

Comparing 3e and 2e, the sheer volume of material isn't even close; I wager that's the case with just core/Greyhawk content even if you excise the other settings.

 

[Aaron L]

In 3E you can tell that thee is an editor or developer (or whatever they are called) at least trying to make sure everything is balanced.


In 2E, every single accessory book was written by a different freelancer who paid absolutely no attention to trying to keep the rules balanced, and quite often made rules that contradicted both other splatbooks and the core rulebooks as well, and I always wondered if the writers had even read any of the other splatbooks, and sometimes even wondered if they had read even the damn PHB.

 

[jeffh]

The biggest problem I have is that some of the optional rules are good, and others suck, but it feels "wrong" (to me at least, but I have issues) to use some and not all.

As long as you realize that's an issue with you, not the rulebooks. I think some of them specifically tell you to use what you like and ignore what you don't, and even if they didn't I can't imagine running things any other way.

 

[jeffh]

It made for some wonderful settings, produced some great sessions/stories, and the basis for the kind of electronic games I prefer to tabletop RPGs (specifically, JRPGs); but, the AD&D rules were pretty much antithetical to that style of play.

What are "JRPGs"? I've never seen that abreviation before.

 

[Treebore]

I'd have to say that if you actually still buy them but don't use them, then you're 'part of the problem'; as long as people buy new releases, new releases will continue to be released and that's that.

I don't think any roleplaying game has ever destroyed itself by having too many options. If the majority of gamers really liked rules-lite systems, we'd see more of them and they'd be more popular. Instead, we have D&D, GURPS, RIFTS and a couple others, all very rules-heavy.

The only reason, and I mean the ONLY reason I have so many 3E books is because since I don't rush out and buy them I have gotten them for $8.00 or less on eBay.

Otherwise I might have 30% of the books, and modules, I currently have.

I wouldn't have Dragon Magic, Book of 9 Swords, Hordes of the Abyss, PH 2, MM IV, if not for eBay and exceptionally cheap ending prices on certain auctions. Plus a whole bunch more I have gotten off eBay over the years.

Plus I can't even guess how many fewer books I would have if it weren't for discounts like at Amazon, etc...

So that is another big difference for me going from 2E to 3E. 2E I had almost every single book and module and paid full retail. In 3E the only reason I have as many as I do is because of being able to buy at good to awesome discounts due to Amazon and eBay.

 

[Blackwind]

Speaking as someone who *consistently* drops 10-15 pounds in two months when he eats mostly fast food rather than mostly home-cooked or, -gulp- sit-down restaurant food on a regular basis, I find this downright laughable. The food at McDonald's may not be terribly healthy, but the portions are about a third of what you would get at a sit-down restaurant; because of the way food is packaged in grocery stores, you face a similar situation there if you're buying for 2-3 people.

Anyway, my biggest problems with 2e were inherent to the core rules, specifically to the poor fit of the AD&D mechanics to the kind of game 2e seemed to want to be. I like the kind of game 2e seemed to want to be. It made for some wonderful settings, produced some great sessions/stories, and the basis for the kind of electronic games I prefer to tabletop RPGs (specifically, JRPGs); but, the AD&D rules were pretty much antithetical to that style of play. When 3e launched with its back to the dungeon, 1e style with modern rules flavor, it was a breath of fresh air because the game was actually designed to meet its design goals.

Comparing 3e and 2e, the sheer volume of material isn't even close; I wager that's the case with just core/Greyhawk content even if you excise the other settings.

I have a feeling your experience with fast food is far from typical.

In any case, my criticism (by way of hyperbolic analogy) was actually directed at WotC, not McDonald's (I'll leave that to Eric Schlosser). My complaint is not so much that WotC are publishing books full of rules that I will never use, but that they *aren't* publishing books that I *would* use -- which is to say, books that are primarily concerned with the elements of the game I am primarily interested in: setting, story, and character development, as opposed to the, er, "statistical optimization" of characters.

A lot of folks have been chiming in here to say that the 3E splats have better rules content than the 2E splats ever did, and I certainly don't dispute that. I, on the other hand, am mostly concerned with fluff, and find that aspect of the 3E splats unimaginative and boring. YMMV.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

What are "JRPGs"? I've never seen that abreviation before.

"Japanese RPG." Technically not 100% accurate (there have been a handful of US or European-produced examples of the style, though most aren't very good), but probably more accurate than "console RPG" since so many essentially PC-style games have appeared, often first or exclusively, on the X-Box systems.

It refers to a game trading on its strong story and characterization, which are revealed to the player in a linear manner, rather emphasizing non-linearity and player choice.