Has 3E become too much like 2E yet?

Hussar said:
Just as a question, what is this "Tons of crap" coming out of WOTC recently. The recent releases have been pretty highly regarded by and large. The Fiendish Codex's, Dungeonscape seems to be getting loving, Bo9S, while not to everyone's tastes, has generated a lot of buzz.

I admit that I don't buy a lot of books, but, I'm seeing an awful lot of very happy threads about WOTC releases over the past year or so. About the only one that seems to have generated a lot of negative buzz is MMIV and that FR book whose name I forget right now. But, by and large, the books being released are being hailed as some of the best in the game.

Heck, in the recent survivor threads, the Fiendish Codex were both in the top three releases ever.

For me, the subpar releases have been: Complete Scoundrel, Complete Mage, Dragon Magic, MMIV, Races of the Dragon, and the Book of Nine Swords. I don't buy the FR stuff, but the recent releases have been widely panned by many people (Dragons of Faerun and some mini-campaign/sourcebook I don't remember off the top of my head).

The high point for WotC in the last year has been Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, which is a rehash of an old adventure. The fiendish codexes were ok- something that was needed for a while and a much needed attempt at fluff, but in the end rather bland- and didn't feel very fiendish to me. Dungeonscape and Cityscape look good for novice DMs and would likely be valuable to them, but I found much of those books to be common sense.

I think part of the cause of my dissatisfaction with the way D&D is headed now is that its changed focus and is all about crunch and builds now, and embraces a very gamist mentality by the core rules. Gone is the evocative prose and background of previous editions- instead the 3.5 books read like very convoluted and dry textbooks. And I'll commit heresy here- options are not always a good thing. The game has become TOO bogged down by options, powerups, and cool powerz to the detriment of presenting new and interesting ideas for use in a campaign. If you spend 4/5ths of a book giving new spells, feats, prestige classes, races, magic items, and core classes, and only one chapter (maybe 10 pages if you're lucky) on including the material in a campaign, and the advice is devoid of flavor, the game suffers. This is what has driven me away from WotC products (and D&D in general) in the last year or so. I know WotC wants to focus on their products as a toolkit for D&D, but the more they do that, the less appeal D&D has to me and to quite a few other gamers I have talked to and played with. Some great stuff is still produced for D&D by other companies that are flavor/fluff heavy (the Midnight materials and the Thieves World books are incredible for example). My group and many people I know have moved to other companies and systems that give us what we want (mostly WHFRP, Savage Worlds, and True 20)- solid mechanics AND great flavor/fluff. One is not mutually exclusive with the other.
 

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Gamist!

body_snatchers.jpg
 

What I find ironic for me, is if I was still using 3E as my game system I would actually have hated many of the books, such as Book of 9 Swords, Dragon Magic, etc..

Since I am using them to mine ideas for my C&C game I have actually liked them.

I think its ironic, wierd, whatever.
 

Gone is the evocative prose and background of previous editions- instead the 3.5 books read like very convoluted and dry textbooks.

And good riddance. :)

Just as a thought though. How could you possibly call a 3e book convoluted in comparison to, say, the 1e DMG? I do not think that word means what you think it means. :)
 

pawsplay said:
I think Complete Scoundrel is complete crap, and Complete Mage mostly so. I do, however, like Fiendish Codexes (Codeces?). Complete Adventurer is pretty good. Dragon Magic is pretty bad.

Funny. I think Complete Scoundrel and Complete Mage are, along with Complete Adventurer, are the best completes. Much better than drek like Complete Divine and Complete Warrior.

Of course, that doesn't stop me from thinking FCI is the best book of last year, and FCII is right up there.
 


pawsplay said:
At the same time, it does not assume you have adopted all the optional material or own other sourcebooks very often, which AD&D 2e often did.
Heh, I guess you haven't seen the FR books recently, then.

Talk about making assumptions re: owning 3e books! Worse than 2e, even... and I'm being serious, here.
 

Arnwyn said:
Heh, I guess you haven't seen the FR books recently, then.

Talk about making assumptions re: owning 3e books! Worse than 2e, even... and I'm being serious, here.

I consider FR an entirely different category than 3e in general. I own exactly one FR book, the campaign setting itself, which I bought used for $7.
 

Psion said:
Funny. I think Complete Scoundrel and Complete Mage are, along with Complete Adventurer, are the best completes. Much better than drek like Complete Divine and Complete Warrior.

Really? I don't like skill tricks and thought the PrCs in CS were pretty weak. As for CM... I don't like reserve feats, and while Ultimate Magus is pretty cool, it seems like it needs some errata or something (while I can tolerate unintended interactions between Wild Mage and Practiced Caster, I think with UM something went awfully wobbly, like True Necromancer wobbly).

Complete Warrior and Complete Divine aren't perfect gems, but I use them pretty regularly for prestige classes and feats.
 

Blackwind said:
Oh, yes, happily indeed... :p You make an interesting point, though -- obviously there are a lot of DMs who use the 3.x rules supplements and homebrew settings, plots, NPCs, et al., some of whom are not interested in buying other people's fluff. On the other hand, there are a lot of DMs who really enjoy using published settings and adventures. As a DM, one of my issues with the 3.x ruleset is that its rules-heavy and statistics-intensive nature means that the 'rulesy' aspects of game prep (statting out NPCs, calculating ELs, etc) take up way too much of my time -- and they're not very much fun, either. This leaves me with less time and energy to work on the aspects of game prep that I do like: the aforementioned setting, plot, and character development. That's why I tried using Eberron (and published modules for Eberron) in the first place. Needless to say, I burned out on that pretty quickly because it took all the fun out of DMing (for me). Now I'm back to homebrewing. In other words, I too "am perfectly capable of using my imagination to come up with setting and fluff," but I also like to read other people's work for inspiration. I do not find poorly written, rules-heavy splatbooks to be terribly inspiring. For me, this may come down to a general dissatisfaction with the system (i.e., the 3.x ruleset). I was very enthusiastic when 3.0 came out, and made the switch to 3.5 without too much griping. I own a good number of rules and setting supplements both from WotC and third parties. But the more I DM 3.x, the less I like it. So, has 3E become too much like 2E? In some ways yes, in some ways no. IMO the similarity is that there are a lot of crappy supplements being published, but the supplements are crappy in different ways. In general, you could say that the 2E splatbooks had decent fluff and really, really bad crunch. The 3E splatbooks have decent crunch and very little fluff at all -- and what fluff there is, is pretty lame.

There is a LOT of truth in this post.

I love D&D 3.X. I've played other games - Exalted, V:tM, GURPS, d20 Modern and more - since it came out, but D&D is the game I've invested the most time and money in.

As a DM, adventure prep time for adventures above 12th level becomes intensively and progressively more disatisfying. Don't even get me started about adventures above 20th level. It is an exercise in ridiculously nitpicky, meaningless math.

I seriously wish that WotC would sick a few computer nerds on this, and come up with a software package where you can type in some changes (apply a template, add a few levels of fighter, whatever) and then print out a custom monster. Make it simple to use, and updateable over the internet with new WotC monsters. I'd buy it in a heartbeat, and it would cut down on adventure prep time by a HUGE margin, and expand the playability of the game into upward and epic levels.

As it is, the sweet spot of D&D is 8th through 12th level. Players have enough power to be formidable, but developing combat encounters doesn't require devoting a part-time job to tweaking and development.
 

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