Has anyone got any flak for buildung a character that wasnt optimized?

Thomas Shey

Legend
That's a weird argument. And not only because of the data-less assertion of what other people are going to assume. Or because in my experience it's the good players who sometimes like to experiment with poorly constructed characters.*

Rather, it's a weird argument because this is a debate about the relative impact of char construction vs. skill at play, not other people's assumptions.

*Which I was thinking of as, say, the 13 Str fighter with high Cha and Int, or the Str-based rogue, etc. Not sure how we got into 8 Str fighters.

Maybe that's your argument, but I was making my own point: I don't think most people critical of "poorly constructed characters" are going to assume that player is going to make it up in play.

As for "data less"; well, yeah, I'm presenting my evaluation of the kind of people who do that. If you disagree, that's fine.
 

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Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Maybe that's your argument, but I was making my own point: I don't think most people critical of "poorly constructed characters" are going to assume that player is going to make it up in play.

Oh, I see. Yeah, this all started because @Dannyalcatraz says he likes to play weird (i.e., non-optimal) characters, but that he is highly effective anyway. And my response was that skill has more impact that build. Which I still assert. Excellent play with a sub-optimal character will be superior to sub-optimal play with an excellent character.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Well, there's more than one way to measure "effective" in combat, right? Sure, a high Strength score will give you a bonus to hit. But that bonus won't come into play if you can't get into range, or see your target, or etc. etc. That's where skills, feats, movement rate, etc., all come into play...and this is why versatility will always win out over optimization in my opinion.
 

ART!

Deluxe Unhuman
I've never caught any flak myself for it, but a good friend moved to a new city and the first gaming group he tried to join gave him flak about this. He's not a min-max kinda guy, and they thought that was dumb and treated him dismissively for not optimizing. Put that in your "Looking For Players" ad, guys: "Min-Maxers Only" or somesuch.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
I've never caught any flak myself for it, but a good friend moved to a new city and the first gaming group he tried to join gave him flak about this. He's not a min-max kinda guy, and they thought that was dumb and treated him dismissively for not optimizing. Put that in your "Looking For Players" ad, guys: "Min-Maxers Only" or somesuch.
That is a great call out. Lots of folks think players just know the way they roll. It helps to be very specific in ads looking for newbs.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
That's a weird argument. And not only because of the data-less assertion of what other people are going to assume. Or because in my experience it's the good players who sometimes like to experiment with poorly constructed characters.*
What assumption? That D&D is built around a team concept of play? Is this something that people have a different opinion on? I mean, sure, you can play a different way although I haven't seen any D&D play that actually does so and focuses on independent characters outside of maybe solo or pair play, and even there henchmen/retainers/followers are a big deal. No, D&D is clearly built on the team concept of challenge. Class design, niche enrichment, encounter design, the resources game, all of this is pointed directly at team play. Every published modules I've ever seen is designed based on team play. I'm not sure this is either data-less or even really an assumption. It's pretty clear.
Rather, it's a weird argument because this is a debate about the relative impact of char construction vs. skill at play, not other people's assumptions.
Again, the fact that D&D is a team sport is neither an assumption (as presented) nor is it irrelevant to the discussion. Yes, we're having a sidebar on the distinction between player skill and character build, but I distinctly noted at the start of the paragraph I introduced team play as going back to the OP and that question -- ie, it's addressing a wider topic than the narrow subtopic we'd been focusing on.
*Which I was thinking of as, say, the 13 Str fighter with high Cha and Int, or the Str-based rogue, etc. Not sure how we got into 8 Str fighters.
If the role in the party that you're taking is that of the primary melee combatant, then this is still a build that will be much less successful at that role regardless of smart play. You can't beat the numbers, here. High CHA and INT are not things a fighter can really leverage very well. Sure, if you go EK, higher INT works, but limited spell slots compared to other casters means the higher DCs or attack bonuses are much less useful overall and will show this. Or you can pick the BM abilities that use INT for DCs (I don't recall if any use CHA, perhaps). So, as a fighter, focus in these two stats is of limited return, while not having a good STR is very limited (assuming this isn't a stealth DEX build, of course, so low DEX as well). The fighter has limited proficiencies to even take advantage of these stats, relying entirely on background to gain up to 2 skills that pair well. So, yes, there's some utility here that can be achieved by trying to go off class.

But, a wizard doing the same for INT does as well in those few areas the fighter can claw out AND is far more competent in their intended shtick as well. As is a Bard or Sorcerer for CHA. They at a minimum tie the fighter in the narrow places the fighter can leverage those stats AND retain full capability in their primary roles because those stats are prime stats for them.

The STR rogue is interesting, but ultimately you're either discarding a primary class ability (sneak attack) to do this for compensatory benefit (any benefits are to small things like STR(athletics) checks or raw strength test, certainly not on par with sneak attack) or it's kinda a gimmick where you're still using a finesse weapon, just with strength, and that doesn't look any different on attack rolls. If you really go for it, it pull a powerful ability for no compensation, which will absolutely be felt (the strong rouge is less capable in combat?), or it's just moving numbers around and not actually a hinderance mechanically.

Look, I don't think we're actually disagreeing that it would be preferable to still have a great character that can be well played by going off type in build, but, sadly, 5e isn't the game that supports this. Some minimal need to at least address well your core shtick is built into the game, and built into the expectation of the play of the game. Showing up with a gimped character is quite often not going to be edgy and cool, it's just going to be selfish because you're not going to be able to fill the role the group expects. A GM could work around this, yes, but, again, that's not about you're skill but the GM making allowances. Skill is not sufficient to shore up bad character builds, and quite often trick builds are not really that great, either. I'm not saying everyone has to optimize -- heavens that would be a drag -- but you also can't assume that the game supports your no STR no DEX fighter who's trying to get by with a keen mind and a silver tongue. Honestly, if you want to play that character, you absolutely can -- play a rogue or a bard. Lack of a primary attack stat will still hurt, but the class allows for more abilities you can leverage.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Oh, I see. Yeah, this all started because @Dannyalcatraz says he likes to play weird (i.e., non-optimal) characters, but that he is highly effective anyway. And my response was that skill has more impact that build. Which I still assert. Excellent play with a sub-optimal character will be superior to sub-optimal play with an excellent character.

I think while that's generally true, there are some degerate cases where it isn't. As an example, it was possible with an ongoing set of terrible choice in D&D 3e to end up with a mid level character that was, in practice, more of a problem than a help. This usually required something more than just an idiosyncratic character build though (but you could have someone with an idea that didn't engage with the reality on the ground; I once saw someone build a Fighter as a dedicated dagger user without any sort of unusual PrC, who would not use anything but his original daggers, nor get them enchanted in any way, short term or permanent. There are game systems you can make that work in; D&D 3e using the normal range of mid-level monsters wasn't one of them), and requires a lot more work in something like D&D4e or PF2e.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Oh, I see. Yeah, this all started because @Dannyalcatraz says he likes to play weird (i.e., non-optimal) characters, but that he is highly effective anyway. And my response was that skill has more impact that build. Which I still assert. Excellent play with a sub-optimal character will be superior to sub-optimal play with an excellent character.
Where did he say he was highly effective anyway? I read his report, and he said he built a character that made odd choices for combat, and didn't provide anything on how he was still good at combat. Instead, he said he built a poor-combat character to focus on skills, and then provided examples of doing well at skills! I mean, if the example is meant to show good play trumps weak build areas in PCs, then this isn't the example to use - that character was still bad at the weak build areas and was good in the strong build areas.

I think you're confusing making an effective character off-type as a bad build. That's not it at all.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
I've never caught any flak myself for it, but a good friend moved to a new city and the first gaming group he tried to join gave him flak about this. He's not a min-max kinda guy, and they thought that was dumb and treated him dismissively for not optimizing. Put that in your "Looking For Players" ad, guys: "Min-Maxers Only" or somesuch.

An example of the pathological form of this I mentioned earlier.
 

He sounds like an angry grognard that never got over the fact that D&D continued without him after Original D&D. 🙃

My wife was repeatedly verbally attacked by one player because she refused to optimize her rogue character and refused to always play the optimal tactical combat action when her turn came up. She wanted to role play. He believed as soon as combat started D&D was a wargame and all roleplay should stop. Needless to say, the guy was booted out of the group.
Ahem... My reply to the bolden sentence.
Old grognards do not optimize as character attrition is very high in their games. And I mean very high. A players is expected to make about 2 to 3 characters (on average) before one survive past level 5. So optimization and careful building of a character is not something to link to grognards but to people that started to play around 3.xed.

As for your experience a "guy". If he did not adapt to your group, good riddance. If you never told him what was your group and group philosophy then you did not do your part. Optimizers are a real thing and they are not all jerks. I have encountered quite few that were decent and understanding of what a gaming group wanted. It is the rare one that will not go with the feeling of the group they are playing with.
 

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