D&D 5E Has anyone tried or theorycrafted a Joe / Jane average party?

[DND_Reborn]

A better array for Joe is 8,9,10,11,12,13.

Yeah, that is probably better. With the +2 and +1 you could start with two 14's at least and work so the two -1 modifiers shouldn't hurt too much in most cases.

This is also better since it gives you an average of 10.5 --same as 3d6 anyway.

 

[jmartkdr2]

This seems like it would favor optimized race/class combos more than usual.

 

[Krachek]

Yeah, that is probably better. With the +2 and +1 you could start with two 14's at least and work so the two -1 modifiers shouldn't hurt too much in most cases.

This is also better since it gives you an average of 10.5 --same as 3d6 anyway.

Such array 8,9,10,11,12,13 represent the wished bad roll for the usual 4d6 method,
lower result won’t be fun.
Someone wishing the thrill of rolling should not be afraid to play with such array and it can be propose as a security array in case of extreme bad roll.

 

[Krachek]

This seems like it would favor optimized race/class combos more than usual.

That is the usual side effect. The DM hope to see weak characters, but soon realize that players will create monsters anyway, even with the all 10 array.

 

[tetrasodium]

Lots of tens won't be fun because everyone is mediocre at everything & good at nothing. It would just be completely random.

I've occasionally done arrays like 17/16/16/10/4/3 so players have pcs great at some stuff & awful enough at other stuff that they need to coordinate on strengths /weakness resulting in fun back & forth spotlight sharing

 

[Kobold Stew]

One could make a perfectly viable Moon Druid starting with a character with straight 10s. I'd love to play that, actually.

 

[MNblockhead]

Why?
So the fighter is just as wise as the cleric? The wizard just as strong as the barbarian? No variation in stats between the characters? Sure, this might prove a roleplaying challenge for a bit, but why? I just don't see it as being a beneficial over any other stat creation method.

Because at 1st level they have just reach the beginning of their careers. Their stats and abilities improve as they level up. It is flavorful in its own way. It also makes more sense why certain races would gravitate towards certain classes, though that seems counter to prevailing trend regarding races in D&D--not that trends have to have any influence on how you and your group wants to play.

 

[MNblockhead]

Lots of tens won't be fun because everyone is mediocre at everything & good at nothing. It would just be completely random.

At lower levels, though even then, racial bumps, backgrounds, feats (if you allow them), and class features will differentiate the characters.

I've occasionally done arrays like 17/16/16/10/4/3 so players have pcs great at some stuff & awful enough at other stuff that they need to coordinate on strengths /weakness resulting in fun back & forth spotlight sharing

 

[MNblockhead]

I think this could be fun. I would consider allowing the players to create custom backgrounds (using the "Customizing Backgrounds" rules in the PHB) and choose one feat (regardless of race).

You also need players who are more careful and tactical in the play because challenge ratings are not going to be as accurate and encounters are going to be more deadly at lower levels. I don't really customize my encounters to make them merely challenging, however. Players in my current campaign can easily run into encounters that they are unlikely to survive if they insist on engaging in unprepared combat. So, my current group wouldn't get too hung up on this "issue."

 

[Bayushi_seikuro]

I think something else to consider with 10 in all stats - any spellcasters, that's going to affect a bunch of things, like spell saves.

At first level, your save DC is only a 10. (8 + stat mod + prof bonus)

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think something else to consider with 10 in all stats - any spellcasters, that's going to affect a bunch of things, like spell saves.

At first level, your save DC is only a 10. (8 + stat mod + prof bonus)

Oh, yeah, and for prepared casters you will have ONE spell prepared at 1st level LOL!

 

[LordEntrails]

Because at 1st level they have just reach the beginning of their careers. Their stats and abilities improve as they level up. It is flavorful in its own way. It also makes more sense why certain races would gravitate towards certain classes, though that seems counter to prevailing trend regarding races in D&D--not that trends have to have any influence on how you and your group wants to play.

Growing up, even in grade school I knew not everyone would have the same "stats". Not everyone was the same level of strong, wise, or anything else. We were unique, just like everyone else

 

[Leatherhead]

Well, that depends - if you are using 10s for PC stats, but normal MM-style stats of the opponents, there's a problem. The party generally won't be able to sneak - their bonus to stealth won't be high enough to beat the opponents' passive perception.

That problem mostly goes away when you get access to Pass Without Trace.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think something else to consider with 10 in all stats - any spellcasters, that's going to affect a bunch of things, like spell saves.

At first level, your save DC is only a 10. (8 + stat mod + prof bonus)

so magic missile, mage armor, shield, detect magic, identify, and disguise self are 6 very useful spells

 

[DND_Reborn]

so magic missile, mage armor, shield, detect magic, identify, and disguise self are 6 very useful spells

They always were...

 

[CleverNickName]

I remember a long time ago, back in the earliest days of 5E, I ran a short campaign where everyone started with 10s in all of their stats except for two: one stat of their choice could be 12, and another had to be 8. Then they could all add on their racial bonuses. The idea was that their characters would start out as ordinary folks who rise to greatness, through struggle and adversity.

Everyone hated it. The players hated not getting to start with a +4 (or higher) bonus, and the longer they had to wait to get a 20 in their favorite stat (Dexterity. It's always Dexterity) the more hateful they became. And I hated hearing about it constantly, in every gaming email and at every gaming session. It was a mess, and I don't recommend it.

For better or worse, players don't just expect to start the game with high stats--they demand it. So I oblige them. After all, I can always adjust the dungeon's math to compensate for the characters, no matter how optimized they are. I can make that +5 feel like a superpower, or I can make it feel utterly useless, with the right DC.

 

[toucanbuzz]

The closest thing I've done is have a vignette side-adventure where the PCs take control of some of their favorite low-level NPCs and have a short adventure (like the innkeeper who owns an exotic pistol, the 3-legged dog-hero of the community, and a married couple that fought as one).

But as a long-term matter, playing characters with "average Joe" scores worked in AD&D because (1) saves weren't dependent on ability scores, (2) magic items such as gauntlets of ogre power or magic tomes could quickly make up the difference, and (3) you could multi-class such a character to cover for weaknesses, albeit only ordinary classes like fighter or wizard.

In 5E, bounded accuracy and saves would create a severe mechanical disadvantage, even frustration, especially when attempting skill checks and combat. That all said, it might make a nice distraction, like playing a DCC (AD&D style) "zero level funnel" where you play multiple "Joes" and expect several to not make it.

 

[tetrasodium]

I remember a long time ago, back in the earliest days of 5E, I ran a short campaign where everyone started with 10s in all of their stats except for two: one stat of their choice could be 12, and another had to be 8. Then they could all add on their racial bonuses. The idea was that their characters would start out as ordinary folks who rise to greatness, through struggle and adversity.

Everyone hated it. The players hated not getting to start with a +4 (or higher) bonus, and the longer they had to wait to get a 20 in their favorite stat (Dexterity. It's always Dexterity) the more hateful they became. And I hated hearing about it constantly, in every gaming email and at every gaming session. It was a mess, and I don't recommend it.

For better or worse, players don't just expect to start the game with high stats--they demand it. So I oblige them. After all, I can always adjust the dungeon's math to compensate for the characters, no matter how optimized they are.

That's pretty much my experience too. If you start them with a reduced point point but not printed by wotc they will whine endlessly. If you give them something that allows a better than normal primary stat and a couple great or good secondary ones they won't much care about the rest as long as the group as a whole can fill any gaps

 

[CleverNickName]

That's pretty much my experience too. If you start them with a reduced point point but not printed by wotc they will whine endlessly. If you give them something that allows a better than normal primary stat and a couple great or good secondary ones they won't much care about the rest as long as they group can fill any gaps

Yep! And it's not like it matters. At the end of the day, it's all just smoke and mirrors.

Highly-optimized characters used to bother me a lot, but lately I've learned that optimization isn't just overrated...it's a complete myth. Have the players have figured out how to give their characters an absurdly high attack bonus, and it's making combat so easy that it's boring? No problem; the next group of skeletons will be wearing chainmail and carrying shields. The group after that will be wearing full plate. (All corroded and worthless, of course, and it crumbles apart when the skeletons are defeated...) The DM should do whatever it takes to keep combat unpredictable and exciting. An easy win every now and then isn't a problem...but if every battle feels like a treadmill or a foregone conclusion, the DM will have to change things up and bypass all that 'optimization.'

I don't worry about optimized characters anymore. Some of them are downright adorable!