D&D 5E Has D&D spoiled you on other RPGs?

[Philip Benz]

We played D&D for ages, but were so disppointed when AD&D came out. "What sellouts!" were the kindest comments flung in TSR's general direction back then.
Fast forward to around 2004 when, after sinking hours into Neverwinter Nights (a DD3 spinoff VRPG) I finally tracked down some players here in central France and we started playing DD3.5, later transitioned to PF1 and then PF2 4 years ago.

For me, PF2 is "the other D&D". I mean, conceptually, it's the same game. It just relies on a different ruleset.

But regardless of which ruleset one uses, Jahydin summarized my feelings precisely: "Without an entertaining DM with an intriguing story, the game itself is terrible."

You can say that about every RPG ever published. It all comes down to the DM and his campaign. Full stop.

 

[payn]

We played D&D for ages, but were so disppointed when AD&D came out. "What sellouts!" were the kindest comments flung in TSR's general direction back then.
Fast forward to around 2004 when, after sinking hours into Neverwinter Nights (a DD3 spinoff VRPG) I finally tracked down some players here in central France and we started playing DD3.5, later transitioned to PF1 and then PF2 4 years ago.

For me, PF2 is "the other D&D". I mean, conceptually, it's the same game. It just relies on a different ruleset.

But regardless of which ruleset one uses, Jahydin summarized my feelings precisely: "Without an entertaining DM with an intriguing story, the game itself is terrible."

You can say that about every RPG ever published. It all comes down to the DM and his campaign. Full stop.

I hear you about entertaining GMs, and imma let you finish, but the producers really ought to make their books encourage this and make it easy.

 

[Philip Benz]

I hear you about entertaining GMs, and imma let you finish, but the producers really ought to make their books encourage this and make it easy.

Regardless of how clever a system you have, if the DM is lackluster, the game isn't going to rise to any noticeable heights. Sure, on the other end you could have a group of players who are so creative and out-of-the-box wonderful that they can carry the dead weight if an uninspiring DM, but at the end of the day, I feel it's the DM who makes or breaks the game.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I hear you about entertaining GMs, and imma let you finish, but the producers really ought to make their books encourage this and make it easy.

And also not grind entertaining DMs to dust by making them be designers.

 

[payn]

And also not grind entertaining DMs to dust by making them be designers.

I dont mind being a designer myself. Time honored tradition with D&D.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I dont mind being a designer myself. Time honored tradition with D&D.

You and I had a choice.

 

[payn]

Regardless of how clever a system you have, if the DM is lackluster, the game isn't going to rise to any noticeable heights. Sure, on the other end you could have a group of players who are so creative and out-of-the-box wonderful that they can carry the dead weight if an uninspiring DM, but at the end of the day, I feel it's the DM who makes or breaks the game.

I agree, but I also think that game companies can make this easier to achieve for folks. A good solid DMG, a game mastery guide, and last but not least, well written adventures.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I do think there's sometimes a certain blase attitude about the difference between a game that gives good support to a GM, and one that doesn't. Yeah, a crap GM is going to be crap and a really good one can make gold out of dross, but I think there's a lot of room in the middle where the quality of the tool you're working with matters considerably.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

One thing a coworker once said that really stuck with me was that "a good employee will do good work regardless. But having a mature process and good documentation will lift everyone up."

I do think there's sometimes a certain blase attitude about the difference between a game that gives good support to a GM, and one that doesn't. Yeah, a crap GM is going to be crap and a really good one can make gold out of dross, but I think there's a lot of room in the middle where the quality of the tool you're working with matters considerably.

 

[Philip Benz]

Payn, Thomas and Ralif all made comments that make me want to talk about my favorite D&D-like ruleset, but this forum isn't the place.

I hear that there is an official playtest for the successor to DD5. I know a lot of folks here have been codifying a rules expansion to DD5, I wonder how much overlap there will be with the next official offering.

To cast another gaze back into the past, after playing the original D&D for years, and being POed about AD&D, our groups in Iowa moved on to Chivalry and Sorcery, and MERP (based on Arms Law). Those were good times, but I wouldn't go back to those games for all the tea in China. I recall longing for folks willing to play Call of Cthulhu, Stormbringer and Ars Magica, but it never happened, and I left the hobby for some 10 years or so. Today, there are still groups playing every one of those old RPGs, more power to 'em. I remain convinced that any game system can be molded into great games by the people running and playing them. I don't look down my nose on any game system, even if I have my personal preference these days.

Maybe a better question would be, what makes a robust game system? I would argue that it is a coherent and comprehensive way to manage skill actions and out-of-combat situations. Sure, combat is important and inevitable in RPGs, but combat is easy. What's hard is how to manage social interactions without devolving into pure DM fiat.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Heck no. D&D does D&D just fine. White Wolfs system does their games just fine. Shadowrun does Shadowrun…. Okay.

3rd Ed taught me that no, not ever other games needs to be D20.

Good god, do I need to bring up Cthulhu D20 and World of Darkness D20?

World of Darkness D20!! Never forget it. Learn the lesson.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Maybe a better question would be, what makes a robust game system? I would argue that it is a coherent and comprehensive way to manage skill actions and out-of-combat situations. Sure, combat is important and inevitable in RPGs, but combat is easy. What's hard is how to manage social interactions without devolving into pure DM fiat.

While I don't entirely disagree with you, I don't think handling combat in a way that is interesting, supports the kind of genre and style you're trying for, feels authentic and isn't littered with traps isn't as easy as you suggest. There are an awful lot of games that fall down in one area or another here.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Heck no. D&D does D&D just fine. White Wolfs system doesn’t their games just fine. Shadowrun does Shadowrun…. Okay.

3rd Ed taught me that no, not ever other games needs to be D20.

Good god, do I need to bring up Cthulhu D20 and World of Darkness D20?

World of Darkness D20!! Never forget it. Learn the lesson.

This is why I roll my eyes a bit at a lot of the 5e derived games out there. Some of them may be doing enough heavy lifting to properly support the genres and settings they're trying for; but I'm betting a lot of them aren't.

 

[CleverNickName]

Honestly I think Dread has spoiled me for all other RPGs. Fast to learn, easy to set up, simple mechanics...what's not to love?

 

[Greg K]

Well, in thinking it all over, I thought I'd share and ask if anyone else has run into a similar phenomenon?

Not at all.
Icons: Assembled is my go to for the super hero genre, but I also like M&M 2e and want to try BASH:UE, and Marvel Heroic
Savage Worlds is my go to for most other genres.

However, whereas, I was looking to eventually try 5e, the direction of 5e (including WOTC removing existing book(s?) on D&D Beyond has me looking at Fantasy Age, Fantasy Craft,Tiny Dungeons 2e, Barbarians of Lemuria, and Conan (Modiphius) for fantasy rpgs

I also am interested in trying

• In addition to Fantasy Age: Revised and Fantasy Craft above, I am looking to try Modern Age, Spycraft, and True20 for class/level games.
• Honor + Intrigue, Cartoon Action Hour: Season 3, various Cortex Plus games, Stranger Stuff (TinyD6 version), Tiny Frontiers: Revised, TIny Cthulhu, Tiny Wastelands, Star Trek (Modiphius), Atomic HIghway, EarthAD.2, Meddling Kids

 

[pemerton]

Marvel Heroic

A plug for MHRP if you haven't tried it. Learning how to GM it, using the Doom Pool effectively, is a bit of a challenge (and the book doesn't have much advice) - but I think it's a great system. I've used it for supers and adapted it to fantasy.

 

[Bagpuss]

Has D&D spoiled you on other RPGs?​

God no. The system while pretty simple, has a ton of specific rules, if I want simple there are far easier systems out there, if I want complexity and customisation, again there are far better systems out there. The default setting is pretty dull generic fantasy.

It's like saying "Has bread spoiled you for other meals?" I mean I'll always eat bread, as will most people I know, and you can make bread interesting, or more complex by adding stuff to it. I like bread, but I wouldn't want to live on bread alone.

 

[Bagpuss]

Honestly I think Dread has spoiled me for all other RPGs. Fast to learn, easy to set up, simple mechanics...what's not to love?

Character progression?

 

[Yaarel]

Flaws and all, 5e is a solid and robust gaming system. It has a reasonable amount of customizability and balance. It has enough players to find other players.

I keep looking at other systems systems because their gaming engines have "ability score" mechanics that work better: Cortext Prime, Fria Ligen (Mutant Year Zero, Tales from the Loop, etcetera), and Shadow of the Demon Lord.

Sometimes the 5e flavor gets on my nerves, and I just dont want to deal with "Dungeons & Deities".

Still, 5e has ongoing support, and I know what its difficulties are.

 

[Grantypants]

I'm not spoiled by the 5e ruleset or any mechanical aspect of the game. There are lots of great RPGs out there that I'd enjoy playing.

I am absolutely spoiled by the product support that 5e has, by the huge number of 5e players and DMs, by the digital tools that exist for 5e, and by the community of 5e creators making stuff that's usable under 5e rules. No other game really comes close to having all these things.