Has the DM fallen from grace?

[corwyn77]

Because that pretty much looks like a moving goalpost.

Interesting that the complexity of the rules seems to undermine even the simplest of things. I think that the amount of time needed to prepare for this would definitely be increased by first having to create a "friggin'" dragon from the books, then having to give him "Detect Magic", and in the end it doesn't even work how you wanted.

Must be frustrating.

What's funny is that even moving the goalposts, the ball still isn't going through.

It still doesn't tell the dragon that the party is coated in magic; it tells him that the party has at least one magic item. That's it. It could be a crappy 1 dart for all he knows.

 

[Riastlin]

What's funny is that even moving the goalposts, the ball still isn't going through.

It still doesn't tell the dragon that the party is coated in magic; it tells him that the party has at least one magic item. That's it. It could be a crappy 1 dart for all he knows.

Give him credit for being consistent at least.

I think it does perhaps showcase why the OP thinks that DMs are falling from grace. As the rules have become more accessible to players, and more understandable, the players are starting to question him more since his interpretations don't seem to jive with the actual rules.

 

[BobTheNob]

Give him credit for being consistent at least.

I think it does perhaps showcase why the OP thinks that DMs are falling from grace. As the rules have become more accessible to players, and more understandable, the players are starting to question him more since his interpretations don't seem to jive with the actual rules.

Finally, someone has come up with the answer to this quandry. Players are more empowered in 4e than ever before. I remember in the pre 4e days the fights used to go on and on, then 4e

1) DM makes decision
2) Player questions decision
3) DM reconsiders decision in light of rule clarification and changes decision in players favor

Hell, players have even pointed out when I made incorrect decisions NOT in there favor. I even once had a player argue himself down to zero hit points...just cause it was the right decision.

Was I un-enpowered? HELL NO! The players empowered me!!!

Perhaps the OP needs to review his own house before pointing the finger at 4e, and thats the heart of the problem here

 

[nightwyrm]

Finally, someone has come up with the answer to this quandry. Players are more empowered in 4e than ever before. I remember in the pre 4e days the fights used to go on and on, then 4e

1) DM makes decision
2) Player questions decision
3) DM reconsiders decision in light of rule clarification and changes decision in players favor

Hell, players have even pointed out when I made incorrect decisions NOT in there favor. I even once had a player argue himself down to zero hit points...just cause it was the right decision.

Was I un-enpowered? HELL NO! The players empowered me!!!

Perhaps the OP needs to review his own house before pointing the finger at 4e, and thats the heart of the problem here

To be fair, the opening post didn't mention 4e at all and when I read it I was under the impression that the description of dis-empowered DMs included everything from 3e on.

The thread just somehow morphed into another 3e vs 4e fight like too many threads do...

 

[Jacob Marley]

Seriously, go ask in the 3e/Pathfinder section. They'll say the same thing.

Yep, I post mostly in the D&D Legacy forum and I would not rule anything other than "Is there magic? Yes or no." The best explanation I have heard for Detect Magic is to compare it to standing in a pitch black room and then turn on the light switch. At first, you know there is light but your eyes are over powered. After a few seconds you can determine which direction the light is coming from. Finally, after your eyes have adjusted enough, you can see that the light is coming from the lamp (fixture, sun, whatever). The other Detect spells work similar, IMHO.

It still doesn't tell the dragon that the party is coated in magic; it tells him that the party has at least one magic item. That's it. It could be a crappy 1 dart for all he knows.

It doesn't even say that the party has items; just is there magic in the cone. The wizard could have Mage Armor going and it would trigger a "Yes!" on part one of Detect Magic.

I think it does perhaps showcase why the OP thinks that DMs are falling from grace. As the rules have become more accessible to players, and more understandable, the players are starting to question him more since his interpretations don't seem to jive with the actual rules.

At this point I do agree with the OP that the relationship has changed between the DM and his/her players. (Though I am not sure that I would characterize it as a "fall from grace.") Nor do I think that this is edition specific. People in the 1st edition and 3rd Edition games I play in are just as concerned with rulings being consistent and fair just as the 4th Edition players I play with. And they want DM explanations just as much, if not more so, than 4th Edition players if a ruling seems questionable.

 

[D'karr]

To be fair, the opening post didn't mention 4e at all and when I read it I was under the impression that the description of dis-empowered DMs included everything from 3e on.

The thread just somehow morphed into another 3e vs 4e fight like too many threads do...

To be fair, the thread did not start as a 3e vs. 4e fight. The OP later made some comments that obviously tilted the discussion to 3e vs. 4e, but it was still not a fight.

As a matter of fact I don't think there is a fight here at all, except against Detect Magic.... and dragons.

 

[FireLance]

As a matter of fact I don't think there is a fight here at all, except against Detect Magic.... and dragons.

In fact, I think the pertinent question here is: has the Detect Magic spell fallen from grace?

 

[ourchair]

The skill of being a game designer/rules creator does not nessisarily overlap with the skills of running a game or telling a good story. The reason a lot of DMs were not trusted is that they were not good rules designers. Separating the two is a really good thing, IMO.

Exactly.

What systems like 4E have done is basically try to take away the DM error factor in which bad / unfun / frustrating encounters resulted in malicious design or a poor grasp of how 'challenge' is outputted by the system math.

Now, when you pull the screen away and see what elements the DM put in the encounter, it is easier to see how they contribute to encounter difficulty, making it more obvious whether the DM designed the encounter poorly either as a result of negligence, poor understanding or outright malice.

 

[S'mon]

And, bluntly, some of it was a deliberate ploy by WotC to sell books. They realised early on that there were many more players than DMs, so that was the bigger market. But if the DM had carte blanche to disallow anything from the game, this would discourage purchases. So, they did a certain amount of work inculcating an attitude that the DM should let the player bring in the latest supplement, that the player should be able to expect to play a Shardmind, and that the DM would make it work. The ultimate manifestation of this, of course, is "everything is core".

I started my 4e DMing career with that "everything is allowed" attitude - 4e stuff seemed so much better balanced than 3e. Then a Cleric PC picked the Moment of Glory level 1 daily from the Divine Power splat, which gives every PC DR 5 for 5 minutes. That was enough to sour me on unrestricted 4e. Now I go with PHB 1+2 & Essentials, and I'm a lot happier. A lot of other DMs seem to take a similar approach. And players who demand other stuff & won't take a polite 'no' are best screened out anyway, IME.

 

[S'mon]

I found using (or creating) 3e monster & NPC stat blocks so horrible, I eventually went over to using C&C stats for the monsters & NPCs, or BECMI stats with the AC flipped. This definitely eased my DMing pain, and made for a nice heroic feel - 6th level PCs were significantly tougher than 6th level NPCS (who'd be around CR 3).

In 4e though the monster stats pretty much work (from MM3/MV onwards) - I just need to halve hit points to avoid grind. And creating new stat blocks per RAW is still a pain, but certainly easier to do than in 3e.