Has the Vancian Magic Thread Burned Down the Forest Yet? (My Bad, People)

[JRRNeiklot]

I have played a lot of wizards in my day in every flavor of D&D and until 4E they have always felt to me like a favored class (especially so for the earlier editions where wizard XP progression took off about level 6). By 3.5 they could be tempered, especially with a focus on foes with SR but overall, yes, their damage output and utility magic was potent once you hit level 8ish (depending on the system) and in our groups they often stood above the rest of the party, certainly warriors.

Perhaps in 3e, but not in earlier editions. A wizard had to be very careful which spells he cast and when. Generally speaking, most spells had a casting time equal to their level. A fireball has a casting time of 3. That's 3 segments in which your spell can be interrupted by a kid with a rock. Higher level spells are even worse. Meteor swarm looks good on paper, but you have to be within a bow shot to cast it. Great if you can open with it, but that's two rounds of standing there with no dex bonus. Magic users have the potential to be very powerful, but it's rarely realized.

 

[Aldarc]

I wonder if these anti-Vancian magic people have actually played a wizard or just read about the class and never played it.

I have played quite a number of them (from levels 1-20), so there is no need to be presumptuous. Having also played fighters across similar levels, and there is no contest. It's better to be a wizard. The pay-off is substantially better. But this is all part of the linear vs. exponential power progression that separates non-mages from mages.

I hope this little example dispels the nonsense of a wizard is so superior to the fighter that the fighters are absolutely useless.

If anything a fighter is superior to a wizard. But neither class can do everything, which is why they form teams so they can compliment each others abilities.

*Diamond Cross critically fumbles his dispel check.*

 

[Diamond Cross]

I have played quite a number of them (from levels 1-20), so there is no need to be presumptuous. Having also played fighters across similar levels, and there is no contest. It's better to be a wizard. The pay-off is substantially better. But this is all part of the linear vs. exponential power progression that separates non-mages from mages.

*Diamond Cross critically fumbles his dispel check.*

Which all of that is a bunch of nonsense. It's not better to be a wizard.

You might as well never play anything else other than a wizard ever again.

It is you who critically fumbled your listen check.

 

[Aldarc]

Which all of that is a bunch of nonsense. It's not better to be a wizard.

It's definitely better to be a wizard due to the benefits that a your spells provide you that other classes lack. But whereas the sorcerer knows a limited selection, the wizard is able to draw from an enormous spellbook. Many of the downsides that you listed to being a wizard can be easily mitigated (if not practically ignored) by a smart player. So good upper level mages will never let a melee fighter get close. The wizard will have max ranks in Concentration, Combat Casting, and other tricks of the trade. And there is a slim chance that a wizard will run out of spells before a fighter runs out of hit points. A fighter is boosted by his magic items. A wizard will also have magic items of their own that can nullify the advantages of a X-mas tree fighter.

You might as well never play anything else other than a wizard ever again.

And this is what a fair share of people did. The advantages are too great to ignore.

 

[Diamond Cross]

It's definitely better to be a wizard due to the benefits that a your spells provide you that other classes lack. But whereas the sorcerer knows a limited selection, the wizard is able to draw from an enormous spellbook.

Which is a fourth huge balance because a wizard can not have spells without his spellbook.

Many of the downsides that you listed to being a wizard can be easily mitigated (if not practically ignored) by a smart player. So good upper level mages will never let a melee fighter get close. The wizard will have max ranks in Concentration, Combat Casting, and other tricks of the trade. And there is a slim chance that a wizard will run out of spells before a fighter runs out of hit points. A fighter is boosted by his magic items. A wizard will also have magic items of their own that can nullify the advantages of a X-mas tree fighter.

Yes, smart players will make it difficult for their opponents. Not everybody is smart though, and there's also inexperienced players as well. The only way to "balance" this is to simply not allow this to happen in the game. Which is sheer utter nonsense.

It's like a game of chess. There will be much smarter players than others. So why allow the smarter player to play a game of chess? It must all be balanced. Same thing in sports as well, there will always be smarter players who will make it more difficult for their opponents.

That's why this is a nonsensical argument. Because basically what you are arguing for is to not allow these advantages to be put into play for the sake of balance. It's utter crap.

And if everything's the same then nobody learns how to use strategies and the game is not fun to play.

And this is what a fair share of people did. The advantages are too great to ignore.

I've never seen this. I've only seen people who wanted to play wizards because it was fun to play them, not to have a super powerful impossible to beat god character for bragging rights.

But I know there are power gamers out there who probably would. But then again, any power gamer takes the best advantages they can to dish out as much damage as they can to be the biggest baddest tough guy around, and they can do that with any class.

It doesn't matter how you change the class to balance it either. These kinds of people are very good at finding ways to be very tough in their chosen class, regardless of the class. Oh, and they never have any variation when they find the right combination either.

However, I am not a power gamer. I do use min/maxing to a certain extent, but I also do things because I want to see what it does or to have a bit of fun with it now and then. Because sometimes I like to have characters who are really good with a bow, or who are really good at say brewing because they really super love ale (In fact I once made a mage who loved ale so much he made almost twenty different spells that dealt with ale, including a couple of offensive spells. Imagine if you will a stream of super heated ale that did as much damage as a magic missile, if you will). I don't always take power attack cleave and great cleave, sometimes I take weapon finesse to have a swashbuckler character as well.

Edit:

And you know what? The Rogue does even better against wizards. They have Improved Evasion, Stealth, and Sneak Damage.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Heh, in my experience the balance of being a wizard is called 'Dogpile the guy in a pointy hat!'

How long does an enemy spellcaster last against a typical party of adventurers? In my experience, not more than a few spells, 'cause everything gets thrown at him. (Including, thanks to a half orc barbarian, a kitchen sink... he actually asked if there was one, just so he could throw it at the Foozle.)

The Auld Grump

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Heh, in my experience the balance of being a wizard is called 'Dogpile the guy in a pointy hat!'

How long does an enemy spellcaster last against a typical party of adventurers? In my experience, not more than a few spells, 'cause everything gets thrown at him. (Including, thanks to a half orc barbarian, a kitchen sink... he actually asked if there was one, just so he could throw it at the Foozle.)

The Auld Grump

So the balance is that one character is so powerful everyone else has to focus fire on him*?

*And fail because he's actually an illusion and the real one is invisible**
**And flying***
*** And has polymorphed into a hydra and is thus better at attacking things then the fighter is.

 

[Diamond Cross]

Well I'm certainly convinced. The wizard is so damned powerful you don't need to play anything else. Let's just get rid of all the other classes. Let's just call the game Wizards And Dungeons and be done with it. A wizard is just the mini god and will clean anybody else's clock. I certainly will never play any other class nor any other games ever. Playing a wizard is an automatic win! playing a wizard means nobody else can win at anything else. One wizard is equal to a thousand thousand fighters at first level and only increases in godly manliness at each level thereafter!

HOORAY!

 

[ProfessorCirno]

What fiction you reading? The wizard is generally better than everyone else. I want my games modeled on fiction, not on game balance where I'm worried about "being better than everyone else" as you put it.

No, they aren't. Wizards are deus ex machina or antagonists that go down like a chump. The protagonist is never a D&D wizard. Magic is never the answer to anything in fiction and mythology - and frequently is the answer to nothing.

I watched movies like Conan where Thulsa Doom was indeed better than everyone else until Conan caught him alone and cut his head off.

Conan murders wizards all the time. He's a one man wizard killing machine.

Where Raistlin is indeed better than everyone else.

Really? This is your argument? Using a D&D book to prove a point about fiction and D&D?

Where Gandalf is the only one that can go against the Balrog or battle the Witch King of Angmar on equal ground.

First off, Gandalf is Michael the Archangel, not a level 5 wizard.

Secondly, Gandalf doesn't do anything against the Balrog. He doesn't do much against the Witch King of Angmar. Gandalf doesn't really do a whole lot of magic at all, because he's not the protagonist, he's the walking deus ex machina.

Where Merlin is the powerful person in the Arthurian legends and could take out any of the knights if they were to go head to head.

Merlin was the antichrist, not a level 5 wizard, for starters.

Secondly, again, what does he do? Merlin doesn't do a whole lot of magic. What he does is present knowledge. That's the role of most wizards - to provide deus ex machina and to give knowledge.

You are factually incorrect.

When you read novels, when you read mythology, when you watch TV shows and movies, when you play video games, the protagonists are universally warriors and fighters and rogues and martial characters. Conan, d'Artagnan, Solomon Kane, Fafhrd, the entire LotR crew, Sinbad, Roland, Hercules, Odysseus, Beowulf, Fionn Mac Cumhaill, Cu Chulainn, Sigurd.

Fiction and fantasy is almost entirely based on warriors doing awesome stuff.

Even the characters with magic spend far more time not using it then they do using it. Harry Dresden doesn't cast Time Stop then Fly then Fireball to solve his problems, he uses his wit and his deduction. Harry Potter uses friendship and knowledge, not raw arcane might. Turjan spends most of his time swashbuckling - hell, he only knows three spells throughout most of the book. The Grey Mouser is 99% thief with only 1% wizardry.

Let's give an example. The first Harry Potter movie (never read the book :B) is a perfect example of your standard hero's quest, and has the standard hero's quest ending. Several trials face the protagonist and side kicks - and each one is solved differently. At the Death Plants, Hermoine utilizes superior knowledge to understand the task and how to escape it. At the chess board, Ron uses tactics and quick thinking - along with sacrifice - to surpass it. Harry has to rely on his own very physical capabiities in flight to grab the key. And finally, the BBEG is defeated not by a Slay Bad Guy spell, but by the deus ex machina of love.

No wizardry needed.

Even the D&D books follow this pattern. You mentioned Raistlin, but Raistlin doesn't do much. He's missing for a fair enough chunk, and most the time he's jabbing with his dagger or just staying out of the fight. The only times his magic becomes God Mode is when he is no longer a protagonist and is using it as deus ex machina. When he's an actual part of the group, what does he do? The same thing all wizards do! He imparts knowledge!

 

[ProfessorCirno]

So Guttorm went in to Sigurd the next morning as he lay upon his bed, yet durst he not do aught against him, but shrank back out again; yea, and even so he fared a second time, for so bright and eager were the eyes of Sigurd that few durst look upon him. But the third time he went in, and there lay Sigurd asleep; then Guttorm drew his sword and thrust Sigurd through in such wise that the sword point smote into the bed beneath him; then Sigurd awoke with that wound, and Guttorm gat him unto the door; but therewith Sigurd caught up the sword Gram, and cast it after him, and it smote him on the back, and struck him asunder in the midst, so that the feet of him fell one way, and the head and hands back into the chamber.​

Fighters own and wizards shouldn't be the "top dog," period.

Edit: Alternately, there's your Healing Surge.