Have fantasy novels gotten "better" since D&D?

[Felon]

My favorite is the old, pulpy stuff. R.E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, Karl Edward Wagner, and Roger Zelazny.

Today, fantasy novels are like the movie industry. They really don't want to alienate a teenage audience, so you don't have a lot of gory violence, debauchery, swearing, and generally amoral protagonists. None of this stuff in indicator of quality by itself, I just like having adult themes pitched at me, as opposed to stores about some good-hearted lowborn kid who finds he has some special gift that allows him to triumph over smarter, more competent foes (Belgariad, Harry Potter, Eragon, etc).

 

[thedungeondelver]

No. Your imperative statements have no p-

SILENCE.

(This public service announcement reminding you of your total obedience to the Robot Elders was brought to you by the Robot Elders.)

 

[Ranes]

SI

So, you're a robot elder? A slave elder! How unsuccessful!

 

[Aaron L]

No. I suspect they've benefited from JMS and Babylon 5, and possibly Chris Claremont's original run on X-men.

D&D is remarkably bad at creating ongoing storylines. The discipline isn't there, and it is *certainly* not on show in most pre-3e adventures.

Cheers!

What he said x2.

After having already fallen in love with Babylon 5, I was completely amazed later when I found out how many of the old shows I used to love as a kid were written by JMS.

It was no wonder I loved B. It's like I was trained to growing up


And Chris Claremont is one the biggest influences in my game story plotting... at least that's what I aim for.

 

[I'm A Banana]

As a whole?

No. There's still crap. There's still popular crap. And a lot of it.

But Harry Potter? Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell? Anansi Boys? Discworld? His Dark Materials?

There's some amazing stuff going on there, too. Things that IMO, are better than Tolkemon.

 

[pawsplay]

Our group started in on this topic last night. It seems that fantasy novels have gotten a lot better since 1974. Is it because of D&D or just sheer luck for the rest of us?

It hurts me in my heart when you say this.

 

[MerricB]

I have about 1,000 books in my library, mostly science fiction and fantasy, and mostly fantasy. I think most are post-LOTR (which is my contention, not D&D)

And then you have literally dozens of books by Carter, de Camp, Moorcock, Zelazny, Anderson, Munn, Smith, Silverberg, Vance, and on and on. One could easily have several hundred good fantasy novels published prior to 1974.

Hmm. Zelazny's big fantasy work, the Amber Chronicles, were 1970-91, only two were published pre-74.

Where I think the big difference is for fantasy works is in the following areas:

* Length. Post-LotR gives some really big epic tales. Where Tolkien admitted, "The book is too short", others decided to out-do him. The Wheel of Time is the most obvious example of this.

* Scale. World-building (with intricate details, foreshadowing and self-reference) becomes more detailed. Again, the Wheel of Time has this in spades, but see also Steven Erikson, Terry Goodkind, Stephen Donaldson, Stephen King...

* Writing Style. This is an ever-changing medium. Read David Eddings, Lois McMaster Bujold and then Fritz Leiber and you get very different styles.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

Oh, I have to give a special mention to the Harry Potter books. Although, especially in the later books, they could be more tightly edited, the sheer storytelling ability evident in those tales is incredible.

They are so popular because they are good enough to be so.

Cheers!

 

[Thotas]

As has been pointed out earlier, the success of Tolkien in the early seventies turned a small genre into a big business. Thanks to it's timing, D&D became part of that business, and part of it's success. That does indeed mean that D&D has made a mark on the fantasy we see today, at least in terms of content -- D&D rules are getting confused with authentic tradition. I read a book of short stories once that claimed to be continuations of Arthurian tradition, in which one story mentioned the need to protect for the hero to protect himself from the lightning breath of a blue dragon. I've seen more than one presentation of a basilisk as having a glance that turns the victim to stone. Of course, this means that in a couple generations D&D will be authentic tradition, just like everyone knows vampires are destroyed by sunlight -- an idea that was introduced as a special effect in the film "Nosferatu".

But quality? I agree that Sturgeon was right. In fact, I predict that he always will be, in every genre and every medium.

 

[MerricB]

But quality? I agree that Sturgeon was right. In fact, I predict that he always will be, in every genre and every medium.

Definitely.

Cheers!